quote:

Originally posted by trancedfarmer that makes no sense....

Religion is the enemy of negotiation, and hence, the enemy of pacifism. Since most fervent religious adherents assert believe that, axiomatically, that which is incompliant with their faith is false, it is inherently impossible for them to compromise on related issues, frequently resulting in violence.

I don't think that the abolition of religion would actually bring about a truly pacifist world, but it would certainly facilitate such a world by removing the primary obstacle to compromise - dogma.

Cheers,

Arbiter

quote:

Originally posted by trancedfarmer that makes no sense....

sure it does!

___________________
When you start to criticize the times you live in, your time is over. ~Karl Lagerfeld

quote:

Originally posted by Busy Child sure it does!

no- religion is a vague term- explain what you mean. if all you mean is that people hold dogmas and cling to ridiculous standpoints because of a group, then you have a very different definition of religion than i do.

Pacifism is the ideology of the weak. If you are oppressed, enslaved and your rights under international law are denied, applying non-violent protests or trying to negotiate with your oppressor will only bring you one thing-Contempt.

It is in the nature of the conqueror to hate the conquered for their weakness.

I used to believe that non-violent protest was appropriate and that negotiations through the United Nations would inevitably protect the weak and the oppressed. I used to think the international community(in general) cared about the oppressed peoples in this world and genuinely wanted to lift the shackles of slavery from those peoples struggling for self-determination.

I was a fool.

The truth is the West and the United States in particular dont give a fuck about anything other than their own vested interests. Principles are always sold out if its expedient.

Theres only one language the bullies of this world understand. Violence.

the principles behind non-violent opposition do not ussually lie in achieiving an auspicious outcome, but rather ussually deal with acting in accordance to a natural selfless law that one finds significant and beneficial to the planet. it doesnt have to bring us an end to bloodshed, all non-violence has to do is be honest and compassionate towards others.

of course one can hardly expect to win over a violent giant like the U.S., which kills pacifists left and right... non-violence is supposed to be a tool for those who wish to live peacefully and who do not tempt themselves with petty vengeance...

Thats true.. if everyone has the same beliefs and same moral standards.. We wouldnt have conflicts like we do today haha but still its very far fetched. If the world would function as a whole instead of seperate nations that would help.. but then again who would vauch for a universal economy haha but im sure dictating enemies and targeting them is not a solution. It will definately lead to more problems.. but then again.. what else can be done?

i guess its a very personal affirmation. it rarely is effective to push upon others.

i think a lot of people use pacifism as an excuse not to fight, and therefore is often cowardly. Like refusing to fight for your country or something.

pac·i·fism
n.
The belief that disputes between nations should and can be settled peacefully.

Opposition to war or violence as a means of resolving disputes.
Such opposition demonstrated by refusal to participate in military action.

OR

pacifism

n 1: the doctrine that all violence in unjustifiable [syn: passivism] 2: the belief that all international disputes can be settled by arbitration

==============================================

I think Canada is normally known world-wide for their Pacifism and art of negotiation.

I even found a civil group here in Canada, Nonviolent Peaceforce Canada that teaches it and has some interesting views...

Pacifism has worked for me personally (when I was younger and for some reason people wanted to fight me) but I'll tell you right now it a HARD stance to take and still keep your dignity about yourself.
I always had the rare gift of making the aggressor look like an asshole in the end...lol

This is sort of analigious to a country.
Terrorism feeds on Pacifism, knowing full well that it can be weak and indecisive...
Something I think Bin Ladin was hoping and expected...
But in every conflict the pacifists have to take a stand or risk being walked over and taken advantage of, knowing full well that if nothing is done, a repeat is almost expected.

So does that mean pacifism doesn't work since they choose to retaliate?
Not at all.
Aggression and retaliation is always the last answer for the pacifist.
In extreme cases however, that answer of aggression and retaliation just comes more quickly when a countries people want answers.
A purely pacifist stance with choice to do nothing but sit back and negoitiate does not move a situation forward fast enough to a resolution at times.
I'm not talking about bringing out the guns and let the bullets fly to force a point.
I'm saying that sometimes, a county has to accept responsibility and LEAD instead of succumbing to the bullying of an idealist.
A leader will make decisions that are unpopular with others and have the foresight to move a situation forward to a resolution...

Sidenote:
I just thought of a quote I heard once and thought it was pretty amusing...
"If you're not the lead dog, the view's all the same"...

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

canada is also positioned far away from any conflict. the U.S. is also seperated from most of the world, save S. America, but since were such bullies we still seem to get involved in many conflicts.

quote:

i think a lot of people use pacifism as an excuse not to fight, and therefore is often cowardly. Like refusing to fight for your country or something.

i think it takes more courage not to fight then to fight. How is harming others courageous. Granted there are many who use pacifism as an excuse not to go into the army and what not, but they are still abstaining from violence, which is rarely productive.

quote:

Originally posted by trancedfarmer i think it takes more courage not to fight then to fight. How is harming others courageous. Granted there are many who use pacifism as an excuse not to go into the army and what not, but they are still abstaining from violence, which is rarely productive.

Haha yea .. its like getting into a bar fight.. you beat the guy up, then hes gonna come back @ ya with ten guys, you bring 20.. so on and so on.. dispute is not resolved and tensions are created

You back down from the fight or settle things non violently... You'd be safe to come back to the bar another day without worrying about bringing your pact of 10 friends with ya


my 2 cents... brining it down to a lower scale