quote:

Originally posted by fastmp3 i gotta say i'm very deceived by the reaction of some of you , all i did was expressing the feeling i had (without any bad intention) after reading the first posts and now i am accused of "just bitching" and i still believe that saying palestinians are not a people is just irrevelant , because they do share cultural , ethnical , religious , and historical background more than jews . back in the '50s the only thing a spharadi and an askhenazi have in common is the religion , and nothing else since each community has been living in a different part of the world for thousands of year , which means each one created it's own culture. and finally if you don't want me to participate in a debate anymore just tell it to me , but as long as i feel there is an injustice or a false fact i won't stop myself to denonciate it. just my 2cents

Denonciating and expressing; sure, everyone is allowed their opinions, but without some support behind it, that's all it is; an opinion.
I wasn't really slamming your opinion, just the way it was expressed; empty.
It was devoid of any persuasion that a discussion should have that's all...

Maybe if you would have told us why you feel that way, I might have agreed...
At least your second post says something...lol

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quote:

Originally posted by fastmp3 i gotta say i'm very deceived by the reaction of some of you , all i did was expressing the feeling i had (without any bad intention) after reading the first posts and now i am accused of "just bitching" and i still believe that saying palestinians are not a people is just irrevelant , because they do share cultural , ethnical , religious , and historical background more than jews . back in the '50s the only thing a spharadi and an askhenazi have in common is the religion , and nothing else since each community has been living in a different part of the world for thousands of year , which means each one created it's own culture. and finally if you don't want me to participate in a debate anymore just tell it to me , but as long as i feel there is an injustice or a false fact i won't stop myself to denonciate it. just my 2cents

Tststs. Thats just historically WRONG. I wont sit down and type for hours just to explain you why Jews are peoples and I find this "we are more like peoples than you" attitude childish. As I already said, Palestinians share just one thing: their exodus after 1948, thats it. The ottoman province "palestine" was almost unpopulated 200 years ago. at the turn of the century BOTH Arabs who worked for wealthy landowners from Egypt or other provinces and Jews emigrated to Palestine. Both saw themselves as "Palestinians" back then. Arabs came for economic reasons while Jews came in order to fulfill their Zionist dream. Of course due to the centuries-long Diaspora Jews throughout the world assimilated and adopted aspects of the culture they lived in, but the essence, such as Jewish traditions, beliefs, language (in some cases) was never abandoned.

P.s.: No1 said u should particitpate int eh debate, Taha! Who else should I argue with? Seriously the discussion would be futile if there was no "counterpart", would be like playing tennis with the wall. "Dualistic" are mutually enriching.

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Last edited by TranceGiant on Nov-21-2002 at 13:38

quote:

Originally posted by fastmp3 even some of the facts you stated are totally FALSE such as arabs living in israel "with full rights" or saying they are living "happily" , are you kidding me ? aren't they treated as second-zone citizens ?

If I was a jew in Israel and had my family blown up by Palastinian terror networks, I'd treat them like second class citizens too. Put yourself in different shoes from time to time and you'll know why things are the way they are.

You can also put yourself in the Palastinian shoes, oppressed by a government, forced out of your home, etc... what are you going to do, go blow yourself up in front of people who did that to you.

The situation is too difficult to take sides, but I think the parties that dont want peace at all ought to be dealt with. The Hamas wants the destruction of Israel, they could care less about a Palastinian state. This group is the one that needs to be destroyed.

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quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Israel is one of the most open societies in the world, out of a population of about 6.3 million (945,000 Muslims 130,000 Christians and 100,000 Druze). Arabs in Israel have equal voting rights; in fact it is one of the few places in the Middle East where Arab women may vote (and men for that matter.. after all most the middle east is still dictatorships). Arabs currently hold 10 (or 9 or something like that) seats in the Israeli Knesset (Parliment/Congress). Ariel Sharon's cabinet includes the first Arab minister, Salah Tarif, a druze who serves as a minister without portfolio. Arabic, like Hebrew is an official language in Israel. More then 300,000 Arab children attend Israeli schools. Contrast this to the time of Israel's founding, there was one Arab high school in the country. Torady there are hundreds of Arab schools. The sole legal distinction between Jewish and Arab citizens of Israel is that the latter are not required to serve in the Israeli army. This is to spare Arab citizens the need to take up arms against their brethern. Neverthless Arabs can volunteer to serve, and some do indeed serve military duty. So from a legal stand point their is no difference. One can not discriminate against you in Israel because you are an Arab in a job, you have equal protections under the law, you can not be arbitrarely arrested and so forth. This in itself, the fact of due process in Israel and that it extends to Arabs as of all it's citizens should make them 'happier' them those who live in other Arab nations with no such rights. Of course their is discrimination against them in Israeli society. But please put it in context, remember for instance that the United States has been independent for 226 years and still has not intergrated all its diverse communities. Even today, nearly 40 years after civil rights legislation was adopted, discrimination has not been eradicated. It should not be suprising that Israel has not solved all of its social problems in only 54 years. Now as for 'happier', I derive this from looking at the average wages of an arab man in Israel, and compare this to an average wage of an arab man in the mid-east and you will see that the Arab man in Israel, should be indeed much happier. They live at much higher standard levels, then their brethren elsewhere in many countries of the Arab world.

that's a little hard for me to believe after hearing about all the suicide bombings and west bank incursions this year... something is going on there underneath the surface, and the above series of paragraphs is a little to rosy for me to accept in it's entirety, although some of it is true.

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quote:

Originally posted by Verona^My If I was a jew in Israel and had my family blown up by Palastinian terror networks, I'd treat them like second class citizens too. Put yourself in different shoes from time to time and you'll know why things are the way they are.

Ya but Palestinians are not citizens of Israel, and therefore can't be second class citizens there of.

Arab are citizens of Israel, and are legally by any means not treated as second class. The only discrimination they face is from narrow-minded people that seem them as a link with the Palestian. They rationalize this fear as some Arab Israelis have co-operated and launched terror attacks against other Israelis.

The irony to reading these posts is so obvious. Not one person is a Palestinian. Surely the best person to say what it is to be a palestinian is a palestinian.

Only a palestinian could say what it is like to be dispossessed

Only a palestinian could say what it is like to be abandoned by other Arab states for the sake of political expediency

Only a palestinian could say what it is like to live under a brutal foreign occupation. Living under a regime that is every bit as racist as South Africa.

Only a palestinian could say what it is like to be abadoned by the international community who know that crimes are being committed in clear violation of international law but turn backs or in the case of the USA are willing collaborators.

There may not have been a unique palestinian identity in 1948, which is one of the reasons they were beaten then. But, years of persecution, murder, oppression has most definitely created one.

There will be an independant Palestine, not on Israels terms, not on americas terms, but on the palestinians terms.

Unless a fair settlement is reached with compensation and better yet an apology there is going to be a major shakeup in the middle-east.

Nothing is being done to stop the rising tide of islamic fundamentalism in the region. The brutal arab regimes that the west and israel could do business with are going to inevitably be replaced by brutal islamic regimes that you cant.

Lets all start our own ethnic groups! It'll be fun!

quote:

Originally posted by rupert There will be an independant Palestine, not on Israels terms, not on americas terms, but on the palestinians terms. Unless a fair settlement is reached with compensation and better yet an apology there is going to be a major shakeup in the middle-east.

It cant be on the palestianians terms, it has to be mutual. Efforts towards peace must be made from both sides, right now the Palastinians are the instigators, the Israelis are mainly just responding to attacks with attacks. The Hamas is a major problem, as they will do their best effort to derail any attempts towards peace in the region.

--- Some notes

Palastine was conquered in the 1969 war, if I'm not mistaken, a war in which arab countries invaded Israel. Since Israel was invaded, and defeated the invaders, I dont hold as much sympathy for those who had their country taken from them, for they were foolish to invade them. On the other hand I would have sympathy in the case of when Iraq invaded the sovereign nation of Kuwait.

Some of the land was given back, but I assume the rest was kept for security reasons.

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Nah, dont even attempt to tell rupert the history of the conflict. Me, Yoepus and various other members have already done so extensively many many times. You see the results...

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quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus The Israelis are a people. They are Jews. They share an ethnical, religion, and historical background that spans more then 6000 years. They are indeed one of the most united oldest ethnical groups still on earth.

the whole premice of your logical reasoning is wrong.

you state that israeli are jews, you said later, there's arab israelis, druze israelis, etc.

israelis share one ethnical background... again wrong. well lets just say that jews share an ethnical background and then again that is wrong. You have long blond jews, you have ones looking exactly like arabs, others who came from africa and are jews, heck there's even some chinese jews!

the real term you're looking for is semite... that is an ethnical group which comprise arabs, armenians, jews, arameens, etc.

world jewery is mostly composed of an european decent (khazarians).

so... telling that israelis are the most united people etc etc because of their ethnical background is totaly false.

Israeli is a person from Israel. Jewish is a person that follows the Jewish religion. not all jews are israelis, and not all israelis are jews.

now the palestinian part... palestinians are the people who live in Palestine. thats it. they can be jews, muslim arabs, christians, armenians, etc etc.

in other words, being palestinian and israeli could be compared to being american. there's no such thing as an american ethnical group... its a misxture of irish, english, german, french, italian, african, etc etc etc...

And you state that Palestine was owned by the British empire... you state it as if they were always owned by them. let me remind you that Palestine was a province in the Ottoman empire, and then again they're only one of the empire that passed thru, just like the British empire.

and one last thing... the thing about the arabic nation. don't be naive. this is not about a nation with a border (called a state), a flag, currency etc. Its like the jewish nation, which if I'm not wrong is somewhere in your laws and state that it is composed of every jewish person anywhere in the world. the arabic nation is composed of the people that share the arabic language and are in their arabic homeland (arabic territories...)

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holy shit what arguments i was not aware there are Arabs living in Israel, well except the obvious parts. but hmm....that whole situation is screwed up and i dont think it will stop for a looong time, certainly not in my lifetime. i hope for the best just cant see it happening, just look at the reply's here from Israeli's and Arabs how they disagree on many things. each holds his own the right. i have my own opinion, but ill keep it to myself for the sake of not getting called an opinionated arse.

>JM<

quote:

Originally posted by ahlamalek the thing about the arabic nation. don't be naive. this is not about a nation with a border (called a state), a flag, currency etc. Its like the jewish nation, which if I'm not wrong is somewhere in your laws and state that it is composed of every jewish person anywhere in the world. the arabic nation is composed of the people that share the arabic language and are in their arabic homeland (arabic territories...)

and the "Croatian Nation" is comprised of all Roman Catholic Croatians living in Croatian land, whether that be in Croatia or Bosnia. oh wait! while MOST Croatians ARE Roman Catholic, SOME are NOT! ||||||CONFLICT|||||WARNING||||||

what the hell now? why CAN Muslim Bosnians get along with Croatian Bosnians and the Arab Muslims CAN'T get along with the Israely Jews?

and vice versa......hmmm....crap this reply isnt going anywhere for me

>JM<