quote:

Originally posted by Izzy well i guess your definition of terrorism is different then mine. what constitutes someone or some entity as being a terrorist? for me its simple. one who INTENTIONALLY aids, contributes or commits killing of innocent civilians in order to achieve a goal of some sort. until you prove to me that Bush's intention are to kill iraq civilians then i refuse to brand him a terrorist. A bully, a hawk yes i will accpet but not a terrorist. sadly saddam falls into my defintion of a terrorist

To me... bush's intentions are to rid Hussein.. and in the process of doing this.... he will kill millions and he knows this.... i think that is being a terrorist. He will do his job in TERRORIZING the Iraqi civilians.

___________________
"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King To me... bush's intentions are to rid Hussein.. and in the process of doing this.... he will kill millions and he knows this.... i think that is being a terrorist. He will do his job in TERRORIZING the Iraqi civilians.

cool, at least now i know why you think that way

by the way usually in every war civilians are killed does that make every head of state that goes to war a terrorist?

you said bush will end up "killing millions and he knows it" at what number of civilians killed do you become a terrorist? how does Bush know he will kill millions of civilians? i think in all actuallity civilian deaths will be in the about 10% of that, but even i dont know....

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If God is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.

I really doubt that if US overthrows Saddam that there'll be a democratic change in Iraq. Every time except the intervention in Afghanistan, american involvment in middle eastern affairs led to a more strict and religious government. The only interest of the US is to have a country whose regime will be on good terms with the US, regardless of its democracy level. Good example for that is Saudi Arabia. They have very strict islamic society, people hate the US, but the government's international policy is to support US whenever necesarry. Besides, continual US interventions in middle east make people less favorable towards the US, so the intervention results might turn up into opposite of what was to be expected of it.
If the US supported liberal oppositions, or at least didn't get involved at all, middle east would now be a very prosperous place to live in.

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i seriously belive that if america just left its hands out of the matters of the mid-east and the palestinians gain a full country and peace with israel that there will still be radical fanatics controling and ruling what people think, they will find a new cause for the problems the arabs are having. btw i still cant see how the palestinian struggle has any affect on a poor arab in yemen, oman, or any other arab country, its not like israel is occupying/opressing other arab nations

There will be radical fanatics, there always are, but not as much. The real problem is that they won't let go so easily, even if people there change. But with a little help from the outside, this time supporting liberal options, that can be changed as well.
And about the second part of your post, would it affect you if some country started killing jews? Of course it would. You don't have to be directly involved to be affected. Mind here that I just made an example, don't take litteraly that I think Israelis go around killing innocent arabs.

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how does Bush know he will kill millions of civilians? i think in all actuallity civilian deaths will be in the about 10% of that, but even i dont know....

He doesn't know, but he can assume.
Oh, so hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths are ok then? That's about 10% of Iraqi population and I doubt Saddam would ever kill that much.

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1+1=10

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Originally posted by Cyrus King To me... bush's intentions are to rid Hussein.. and in the process of doing this.... he will kill millions and he knows this.... i think that is being a terrorist. He will do his job in TERRORIZING the Iraqi civilians.

So many civilians will only die because the government of Iraq is without honor. They will use civilians as human shields to serve the dual goals of protecting their fortifications and fueling their disgracefully effective propaganda engine in a childish endeavor to deflect responsibility for their choices onto the United States, but in reality it is their dishonorable tactics which are the primary cause of such massive civilian casualties.

As usual, however, the vast majority of the international community will be taken in by this simple-minded ruse, and place the blame for the deaths of those civilans squarely on the shoulders of the United States. But regardless of who we choose to scapegoat for such tragedies, the true source of these deaths is the same evil we are criticized for trying to purge.

Sure, you can make plenty of excuses for them - such tactics are the only way they can fight back against a country with the power of the U.S., numerous civilians are bound to die anyway, etc. But that's all they are - excuses.

Iraq has the power to minimize civilian casualties. It's their government's decision how many of their people must die. The very fact that they would choose to have so many die is the reason that this war ought to be fought, although I fear the U.S. government is only prepared to fight a small part of the battle it would take to truly bring liberty to Iraq, and if so, it will accomplish nothing.

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Originally posted by Izzy arab nations must look within to solve there own problems before tackling those that come from the outside.

therefore please tell the US to stick their nose out first then we will solve our problems by our own.

by attacking Iraq the USA is helping the raise of the radical and extremists groups , imagine the arab world lead in every country by extremists preaching the war against israel ?

USA & Isreal are lucky to have those suck up puppies who's do anything even kill their own people just for a little commercial partnership with the US.

___________________
"A style that's impossible to define. Prog? Hardly. Tech house? Not boring enough. It's like trippy twisted acid house but deep and funky. See, I told you - impossible."

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 He doesn't know, but he can assume. Oh, so hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths are ok then? That's about 10% of Iraqi population and I doubt Saddam would ever kill that much.

oops i meant more along the lines of tens of thousands if that, but then agian since saddam has in the past lauched scuds at israeli civilian targets and the possibility of them being warheaded with chem/bio then maybe it might be more catastrophic.

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And about the second part of your post, would it affect you if some country started killing jews? Of course it would.

well i would analyze the situation, just because they are jewish means i will support them... if they are innocent then yes that would affect me. i just hope that the other arabs see the conflict for what it is and not for what some religious cleric has told them is the truth

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I really doubt that if US overthrows Saddam that there'll be a democratic change in Iraq.

possibly, i dont know for sure, no one can predict the future. however i was stating that as something i would like to see... my views dont have to reflect those of the US

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If God is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.

nice post arbiter

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Originally posted by fastmp3 therefore please tell the US to stick their nose out first then we will solve our problems by our own.

im sorry i belive america even though it may not be the prime mover still hopes for better lives in the mid-east (as it does for everywhere in the world) and are truly trying to help, i want to see the arabs helping themselves regardless of the US.

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by attacking Iraq the USA is helping the raise of the radical and extremists groups , imagine the arab world lead in every country by extremists preaching the war against israel ?

see this is what im saying sucks, why is there no opposition in arab society to fanatisism. saddam is a brutal dictator, why doesnt the world see at least a little decency in america trying to remove him. if it cause more radicals to rise why cant there be an opposing voice to qual this by saying this is for the better?

___________________
If God is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.

quote:

Originally posted by Izzy see this is what im saying sucks, why is there no opposition in arab society to fanatisism. saddam is a brutal dictator, why doesnt the world see at least a little decency in america trying to remove him. if it cause more radicals to rise why cant there be an opposing voice to qual this by saying this is for the better?

cuz we don't trust the usa anymore who's gonna put another suck up to lead irak

___________________
"A style that's impossible to define. Prog? Hardly. Tech house? Not boring enough. It's like trippy twisted acid house but deep and funky. See, I told you - impossible."

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So many civilians will only die because the government of Iraq is without honor. They will use civilians as human shields to serve the dual goals of protecting their fortifications and fueling their disgracefully effective propaganda engine in a childish endeavor to deflect responsibility for their choices onto the United States, but in reality it is their dishonorable tactics which are the primary cause of such massive civilian casualties.

Nobody is forcing those civilians to do that, and same thing happens in every country in that position, in Serbia for example, people were standing on bridges during nato bombings. If they want to risk their lives, it's their choice.

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i just hope that the other arabs see the conflict for what it is and not for what some religious cleric has told them is the truth

Unfortunately that is not the case. And in many cases it is so because of the US interventions.

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im sorry i belive america even though it may not be the prime mover still hopes for better lives in the mid-east (as it does for everywhere in the world) and are truly trying to help

American people probably yes, but american government probably no.

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1+1=10

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 And in many cases it is so because of the US interventions.

im going to do a little research about this when i get a little less lazy. i feel this excuse has been giving too much strength. thinking about it rationally US has intervened a few times in history and just in a few of the countries but not to the extent people make it out to be. The US has intervened all over the world and more so in parts outside the mid-east and there isnt the same problem of religious fanatisism and terror as there is in the mid-east. which makes you conclude that it isnt becuase of US intervention that we have these problems (although it may play a part). people have to differentiate between diplomacy and intervention, there is a big diffence. anyways maybe ill open a thread specifically about US intervention on a historic point of view some day and show that it really isnt that drastic, especially compared it's intervention else where in the world.

___________________
If God is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.

quote:

Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Nobody is forcing those civilians to do that, and same thing happens in every country in that position, in Serbia for example, people were standing on bridges during nato bombings. If they want to risk their lives, it's their choice.

Hussein intentionally constructs military installments and weapons depots in areas of extreme population density for the sole and exclusive purpose of forcing the United States to choose between killing civilians and not destroying the infrastructure of his armed forces. In many cases, most of the civilians are not even aware that these tactical military targets are located only a few buildings down from their homes.

This is not a case of civilians choosing to risk their lives, this is a case of civilians being used as human shields, either without their knowledge, or because they don't have the money or the willingness to relocate their entire familities every time Hussein decides to construct a new military facility in their neighborhood. While some civilians would no doubt risk their lives on their own accord, the Iraqi regime doesn't give people that choice. This is a ridiculous and inhumane tactic by the Iraqi regime designed to solely to villify the United States.

The blood of those civilians is not on the hands of the United States for carrying out a just war to rid the world of an oppressor and a tyrant. The blood of those civilians is on the hands of the Iraqi government, and the governments of other countries which encourage such barbarous tactics by demonstrating their effectiveness by allowing them to cloud political discussion about the virtues of such a war.

If other nations didn't sympathize with Iraq as a direct result of Iraq using such degenerate tactics, then Iraq would have no reason to use such tactics. So while it may be conveniently self-righteous for other governments around the world to blame those deaths on the United States, in reality they themselves are far more to blame.

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter So many civilians will only die because the government of Iraq is without honor. They will use civilians as human shields to serve the dual goals of protecting their fortifications and fueling their disgracefully effective propaganda engine in a childish endeavor to deflect responsibility for their choices onto the United States, but in reality it is their dishonorable tactics which are the primary cause of such massive civilian casualties.

LOOOOOOOOL....Do you recall the Icubater Baby incident concocted by the US government and the Kuwaiti embassodors daughter? Now that was a "Disgracefully effective propaganda engine" that helped the public support the invasion of iraq in 91. We also shouldnt forget the mis-inforamtion campaigns and the false satellite pictures the US mediated to instill anger in the American public and encourage a war.

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As usual, however, the vast majority of the international community will be taken in by this simple-minded ruse, and place the blame for the deaths of those civilans squarely on the shoulders of the United States. But regardless of who we choose to scapegoat for such tragedies, the true source of these deaths is the same evil we are criticized for trying to purge.

I have seen arial footage of fighter jets that intentionally have bombed shelters filled with hundreds of families.... then claiming that they thought it was a bomb making facility....give me a FUCKING BREAK!!!!

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The very fact that they would choose to have so many die is the reason that this war ought to be fought, although I fear the U.S. government is only prepared to fight a small part of the battle it would take to truly bring liberty to Iraq, and if so, it will accomplish nothing.

I dont think you understand....the civilians of iraq do not choose to die.... so dont say thats a fact. They die because bombs are dropped on their heads as they sleep. And why is the US soooooo concerned with the liberty of Iraqi's.... many people are happy the way things are there.. yet many are not.. it doesnt mean you should invade that country. Also... lets not forget about the constant excuses that the US has being giving to go to war even though Hans Blix has acknowledged the co-operation of the Iraqi government. So far.. nothing has been found in Iraq indicating a nuclear weapons program.

___________________
"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V