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Originally posted by FuzzyGreen Ok, first off, you are refering to melodic trance, not progressivie.

whats yoru point? give me some progressive songs and i'll disassemble them with similiar results.

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Trance IS formulatic but it has to be since it is dance music. Most people dance to a 4/4 beat because it is easy for them to feel.

true, but that does not make it any less simplistic.

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Also, you can't have tempo or time signature changes because that would make mixing it nearly impossible for the DJ.

see previous argument.

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Also, as far as those "space noises" and effects, a lot of artistry goes into those effects. If Delerium - Silence (tiesto mix) didn't have that weird siren sound hitting right at the end of the build up along with the filter cut-off rolling to zero at the exact same time you wouldn't get those chills going down your spine and that crowd in the background of Magik 6 wouldn't be screaming with joys of ecstacy.

sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I didn't say space noises were bad, I simply used the term "space noises" because I was at a lack of words to describe them. Yes, they sound very cool, and add to the music quite a bit. This is one thing trance has that most music doesnt have, and is the first real point as to why it could be considered complex.

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As for key changes, this happens vary rarely and probably cause it reminds a lot of people of progressive rock and can possibly turn a song into cheese. The only song I know of that has a key change is Paul Van Dyk - Another Way which is not cheese. As for repeating melodies and basslines, yes it is very true that these tend to be repetative, but how else can you trance out without something to put you in a trance first? It's the rare change in music, the minimalistic quiet breakdown which gives you the euphoria and the energy.

once again, just because theres a reason for why its simple doesnt make it any less so, please, stick to the original argument.

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As for complexity, have you ever listened to some tracks with good headphones on? You can have 6-8 tracks of sounds doing different things all at the same time. For that matter, you should try composing some trance. Making a trance song that is truely emotional and euphoric without being cheese or copying is hard as hell.

this is a good thing why?

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But what the hell, we don't enjoy music because of its intelligence or complexity, we enjoy it because it makes us feel a certain way.

need I say again? its not that I dont like it, i'm jsut trying to correct the misconception that trance is complex and intelligent.

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Originally posted by tiesto14 i think you need to look beyond the beats.....otherwise your not getting the true experience of Trance.....your ears are aware of the noise ad ur mind can register the diferent notes....but its when your emotions sub-conciously become attacked by the sound and you feel the music, as oppose to hearing it.... You have to look past the beats and the structure of the track....

you're missing the point of this thread in the first place, please re-read my previous posts.

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You statement is very similar to saying a poet who rhymes about berries and grapes or a poet who rhymes about buildings and pavement...yet when you look beyond his chosen words and see the meanining and emotion beyind what he is trying to convey do yo truley understand his meaning.....

no, I think a better anology wold be a poet that rhymes using lyrmics and a poet that uses free form. you could use the same words, slightly rearranged, but due to the structure of the poem, the meaning can be massively different.

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OPEN YOUR MIND....

uhh, this reply really didn't show me of any "mind opening", perhaps you should try some yourself.

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Originally posted by Nell progressive is simple, boring, and not very entertaining. trance isnt. and yes people like chicane, BT make more complex tracks, but who gives a fuck?

just out of curiousity, what does this have to do with ANYTHING i've said?

and I dont want this to become a trance vs progressive flame war, so lets try to avoid future posts like this.

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chahhahahahha

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Originally posted by branmuffin this is a good thing why? need I say again? its not that I dont like it, i'm jsut trying to correct the misconception that trance is complex and intelligent.

Ok, when I was taking classes on music theory back in college I used to have a chip on my shoulder similar to yours. I would listen to a song in a club and think, "wow this is really a simple song, all it has is a repeating bassline, the same drum loop, and some small break with a simple melody". People would be dancing around and feeling good listening to the track and I would say to my friend, "this music is so simple, why do people like it?" and then my friend would say, if it is so simple how about making a better song then. So I went to my studio and created some complex songs. Everyone liked them, but no one LOVED them, they were just lacking something. Well after years and years trying to figure out what talent is needed to make a good song I found out that the real talent and complexity in composing a song is in the emotions generated by the song, not the complexity of the melody or the complexity of the rhythem. So in that sense I think that Trance is one of the most complex types of music out there.

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Originally posted by branmuffin not true, although all music has common threads, certain geanrea's, such as classical, jazz, even some rock and metal, have a wide variety of melodies. Also, they generally have melodies that last a much longer time than four measures. Take Cannon in D major, the melody is really hard to pick out, because the entire song is the melody, certain parts may be repeated (although never more than once), but its all melody essentially. On the other end of teh spectrum, take metallica - master of puppets. There are actually several "melodies" in this song, all of which are quite long.

Music follows patterns, if you know the patterns you can make any music, so at the end, the more you now the better, and that makes it simpler for you

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Originally posted by branmuffin once again, I never said it was bad because its simple... I said that the general attitude of the TA forum is that trance is complicated and intelligent, which it is not.

I dont think trance is that much intelligent either, but you dont have to be that much intelligent to make music in the first place, really dumb people can make really good tunes

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Originally posted by branmuffin these same arguments apply to virtually all geanreas of electronic music, I chose trance because this is the TA forum, and you all think trance is intelligent and complex.

No I dont

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Originally posted by branmuffin you konw, I dont really like metal, but some of those guys really do actually have musical backgrounds, and i've heard more musical talent coming out of them than I have from PvD.

mmm maybe

The point is that if trance is or were simple, there is a whole other horde of simpler music, and you are complaining to much.
Folklore music for example in some country's NEVER changes the melody, only changes the lyrics, its true I heard em

also the point was that, if its simple it doesnt really matter. I have thought it to be simple to, but I like it anyways.

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Last edited by dyson on Jan-10-2003 at 00:42

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Originally posted by FuzzyGreen Well after years and years trying to figure out what talent is needed to make a good song I found out that the real talent and complexity in composing a song is in the emotions generated by the song, not the complexity of the melody or the complexity of the rhythem. So in that sense I think that Trance is one of the most complex types of music out there.

DEAR GOD THAT IS SO F**KIN' TRUE!!!

I would like to here more about this little experimento of yours.

Also, I read somewhere that repetitive music has a way of making you feel trancy, and 4/4 beats have a biological effect on the body, continuos beats are less stressing than break beat for example, and when you have a killer sound system and you breath and the bass pounds, it kick inside your lungs and your heart adjusts itself to the rythm. It actually sound much like what Ive felt, I even checked my pulse one time

euphoria!

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Originally posted by dyson really dumb people can mas really good tunes

How do you define a dumb person? They may be a musical genious yet be a Highschool dropout. How is one person to judge how smart another one is? I don't know shit about calc, but I can sure make a mean spicy fried rice.

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Originally posted by FuzzyGreen How do you define a dumb person? They may be a musical genious yet be a Highschool dropout. How is one person to judge how smart another one is? I don't know shit about calc, but I can sure make a mean spicy fried rice.

I dont know :S it was just the concept
I dont think of myself as that much intelligent anyways
but Im good at calculus

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Originally posted by dyson Also, I read somewhere that repetitive music has a way of making you feel trancy, and 4/4 beats have a biological effect on the body, continuos beats are less stressing than break beat for example, and when you have a killer sound system and you breath and the bass pounds, it kick inside your lungs and your heart adjusts itself to the rythm. It actually sound much like what Ive felt, I even checked my pulse one time euphoria!

A BPM of 138 is VERY close to the BPM of the average human heartbeat. Most trance is played near that same BPM.

for your information, trance is not meant to be listened to individually, song-by-song. why do you think there are repetitive intros and outros? so that whiners like you can have a case against trance? NO! it's because it's DESIGNED for the DJ. this is how dj's can make long, seamless mixes, and produce such wonderful feelings of euphoria and joy to all listeners - and dancers - alike!

maybe you should go out and hit a trance party for once, and see how trance is MEANT to be experienced. NOT by sitting at home listening to individual mp3's.

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Originally posted by branmuffin It is not, and therefore should not be treated as such. you're still perfectly welcome to listen to it and enjoy as you like, but you shouldn't falsely claim its complex intelligent music.

OK, so go back to sitting in your armchair, listening to your "complex" and "intelligent" classical music, while i probe the emotive depths of the human soul with my trance.

have a good day.