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Alrighty then, here we go......
| quote: | | If two companies are identical except one has better employees, it's going to be able to offer a superior service at a lower price. A company gives itself the greatest chance of having better employees when it drafts them from the greatest possible pool of candidates. |
Okay, I see your point here. But as I explained, if all companies truly adopted an affirmative action policy, this would be a moot point because all companies would be under the same guidelines, and thus would have to draw upon the same 2 pools of possible employees: one pool from the majority, one pool from the minority. But like I said, this is wishful thinking, because in reality you are correct, unfortunately.
| quote: | | If we are truly trying to move towards an equitable society, we shouldn't even be keeping track of statistics that categorize people based on race. |
The statistics serve the purpose of pointing out that we are NOT in an equitable society, which is what I am explaining here.
| quote: | | What are you suggesting, that we ensure every possible subcategory of the population has precisely identical economic statistics? Please. There are a variety of factors resulting in this statistical imbalance. But the fact that it exists doesn't justify discrimination. |
If you mean that I feel that we should all be a little more equal in terms of economic status, my answer is absolutely. Without going into too much detail in economics, history has shown that a stronger middle ground (middle class) gives a more economic stability to our country. Now I realize this is a class argument, but I pointed out earlier of the disproportional reality of blacks and other minorities for that matter in the lower class, so I’ll make a direct tie to race. Whether you accept those statistics or not is not the argument here. The point they make, however, is painfully clear. Yes, there are a variety of factors that result in this statistical imbalance, and one of biggest factors is oppression. This idea alone more than justifies affirmative action, not only for blacks but for you and your Indian ancestors as well. I’ve worked as a teacher’s aid at an Indian Nation’s Colleg in my hometown, and there are few Native Americans I’ve worked with there that have grown up underprivileged that would disagree with me.
| quote: | | If your family member was killed because an unqualified person was hired to implement or test the algorithms that controlled the aircraft they were riding in, would you lose sleep over that? |
No, I’d sleep like a baby and throw a party in my loss! C’mon, of course I would! But I’m looking at the bigger picture here, society as a whole, not particular nit-picky incidents.
| quote: | | Two wrongs don't make a right. If they want to be seperate, that's fine, but remember how the principle of "seperate, but equal" worked out with regards to segregation? I don't think it's practical, and certainly affirmative action is doing little to facilitate it. |
Now you’re really taking me out of context. Did it really sound like I was saying the old “separate but equal” doctrine, or did my statement have anything to do with the atrocities that occurred from this doctrine? Not even close, so don’t even attempt such a jump. Cultures can work together in any work or educational environment without trying to mix views/beliefs/cultural attitudes – that’s what I’m saying here.
| quote: | | If they even show that a problem exists (which I do not believe), they still fail miserably in attempting to explain why racism is the solution to the problem. If the problem is minorities in general, then why don't Asians, for example, exhibit the same degree of relative impoverishment as blacks or hispanics? |
One word: history. We took these people as slaves to our country, destroying their families, language, culture, religion, and above all else, morale. Their humanity was stomped on while we had them tied up around the necks picking cotton in our fields to “better” our industrial nation. We institutionalized their poverty from the very get go. Asians didn’t necessarily have the greatest start in the world either, having to work on our railroads and then being easily disposed of when finished. But guess who was working on those railroads with them? Yep, the Blacks. The point, however, is that no other race had to bear the unbelievable atrocities that we put African Americans through with slavery. We in essence destroyed their outlook because of our past, and that has DIRECTLY affected their outlook on life in the present and future. Now, we did a pretty good job screwing up Native Americans as well, which is why I support affirmative action for all minorities.
| quote: | | The black subculture, for example, is not exactly one that tends to glorify education. Even when black students are presented with wonderful opportunities, fewer of them take advantage of those opportunities than members of various other ethnic groups. Discriminating in order to try to compensate for this, and give the appearance of equality when in reality we are only creating inequality, is the ultimate hypocrisy. |
Neither do the Native Americans living on Federal income below poverty levels on protected land, but they should be given the same opportunities as anyone else to succeed nonetheless. Do you have any proof to support such a claim of Blacks neglecting opportunities given to them? That’s quite a generalization, and a claim which nearly implies either a level of laziness or lack of intelligence on the Black race as a whole. Surely that’s not what you meant was it?
| quote: | | So why not give people in poverty an advantage, rather than just giving the advantage to poor people of certain ethnic groups? |
Because again, taken as a whole, it’s not Whitey in poverty that’s hurting the most, it’s the other minorities in poverty and subsidized living that are getting the shaft, statistically speaking. True, all individuals in poverty have a disadvantage, and there should be a better means of allowing all poverty-stricken individuals to be on the same playing field as middle and upper class. Your point is well taken here.
| quote: | | There is no fantasy. The statement is axiomatically false. No context can justify that statement. It is self-contradictory. What that means is that there are no circumstances under which it can be true. That is an indisputable fact. |
Okay, so the statement you created is self-contradictory. I’ll concede that your interpretation of affirmative action with your statement is false, based on YOUR words you created in the statement alone. Instead, how about my interpretation: “I didn’t have the same chances and educational opportunities as you, so I need help to be equal.” Better?
| quote: | | No, I've never lived in poverty, but my grandparents grew up as subsistence farmers on an Indian reservation in an era where discrimination was very real and very opposed to them and they still made millions of dollars by their own hard work.. |
I commend their grandparents’ bravery and hard work. Obviously you have a lot to be thankful for. However, this story you share is not a common story. Rather, it’s a rarity. Is that to say that others around your Grandparents were not hard workers? I’m sure many, if not most Native Americans were hard workers in whatever they did or still do, but still did not receive the fruits of their efforts. The same is true of Blacks and other minorities that have worked hard but did not receive a financial fortune in return. You see, hard work does not always equate to lots of money. I’ll point you to a great many teachers that could tell you this.
| quote: | | Giving people advantages on the basis of skin color only serves to discourage people from living up to their potential, by making fewer demands upon them. People need to be challenged, to give them something to rise up to, not to be handed a better life just because they started off below average |
I couldn’t agree with you more on this. There are many of those individuals that will take advantage of such circumstances, unfortunately. People do need to be challenged, given goals to shoot for, and feel the rewards of attaining such goals. However, living in poverty is a challenge in of itself for many. I wish I could show you what I’ve seen working in the schools of urban Cincinnati. Life in poverty is harsh, and it’s full of many worries. Being in school and staying in school to better yourself is but one small worry. Staying alive, feeding your family, making ends meet in any way you can tend to be the theme for most families. Sadly, this is what’s passed onto kids at a very early age. School may be a means of getting out of the ghetto, but there are other life issues that tend to be a little more pressing. I’m sorry, but unless you’ve been there, you may not truly understand this, like many in the upper-middle/upper class.
| quote: | | Additionally, I'd like to point out that poverty in the modern developed word is really a euphemism for irresponsibility. |
That’s pretty low. Where in the hell do you get such a statement? What makes you think this? You can point it out, but you’d better back it up. Seriously, you really should stop listening to Limbaugh on the radio.
| quote: | | If you're responsible with your finances, you can support a family with a decent standard of living on less than $5,000 a year. |
Jeez, what are you smoking, and could you pass it over here? Less than $5,000? Again, any evidence to support this? Better yet, I’d like to see you try this yourself.
| quote: | | The people who are living in poverty aren't in poverty because they can't make enough money. They're in poverty because they're too lazy to work, or because they spend all their money on drugs, or cigarettes, or alcohol, or designer clothes they don't need, or because they get themselves in to ridiculous amounts of debt. |
Man, the generalizations keep a comin’! Look, I won’t deny there are those individuals in the bunch who fit this category. But to categorize an entire group by such is completely irresponsible of you. Again, evidence?
| quote: | | Poverty does not exist except where it is invited. Any sane person in half-decent physical condition has more than sufficient opportunity to support themselves and their family. To suggest otherwise is to ignore the obvious. |
Wow, so poverty is invited by the lazy alcoholics who wear expensive designer cloths and refuse to work hard? Don’t leave the door open so far will you? These statements you’ve made are pretty typical of someone in the upper class who has no clue what it means to be poor and struggling through life. Now there’s my generalization. Will you prove that one false for me?
Look, the point of affirmative action is yes, to create a more level playing field for minorities, and give allow the opportunities that are given to the MAJORITY of whites. They did not start off on the same level playing field as the white males, but constitutionally should be given the same opportunities as anyone else. The argument you hold is that they are in fact given the same opportunities as everyone else, and I’m trying to point to you that is not the case. Their culture has been damaged morally, spiritually, and financially by our stupid stupid actions in the past, and they are only beginning to see that they can, in fact, move forward in their lives. Keep in mind, we’re only talking 30 years here. That’s not a very long time for any culture to develop, let alone a culture that’s been trampled on for so many years in the past. Affirmative action no doubt helps this process. Until there’s a more level playing field, it will continue to exist, and I will continue to support it.
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Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...
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