My personal feelings are that what happened in Holland & France could happen here, there are far too many illegal immigrants sucking the system dry, and with labour & the conservatives never having done anything of real use imo I can see people voting for the radical parties like the BNP, esp if they push a hard anti-immigration policy, after all people vote to get what they want, and the way the BNP & others work they could exploit it

Personally I don't think any party should be in power, they all suck but we gotta have one, so i'm voting the UKTA in

I'm an immigrant in Holland ... with an American passport

I find it funny that Holland, which claims to be the most open, liberal, and democratic society, is becoming anti-immigrant (e.g. Pim Fortuyn), antagonistically anti-American, ... , ...

So... despite sex & drugs, people in Holland aren't so "open" and "tolerant" after all!

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quote:

Originally posted by Eugene I find it funny that Holland, which claims to be the most open, liberal, and democratic society, is becoming anti-immigrant (e.g. Pim Fortuyn), antagonistically anti-American, ... , ... So... despite sex & drugs, people in Holland aren't so "open" and "tolerant" after all!

maybe holland claims to be the most open liberal and democratic society but we don't have space for everyone that live in a country and want to come to holland because of the most open and democratic society

holland is a small country and there only space for political immigrants

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quote:

Originally posted by Eugene I find it funny that Holland, which claims to be the most open, liberal, and democratic society, is becoming anti-immigrant (e.g. Pim Fortuyn), antagonistically anti-American, ... , ... So... despite sex & drugs, people in Holland aren't so "open" and "tolerant" after all!

They are not 'anti-immigrant' but believe me, the size of the usa has room for a lot more than Holland or the UK, the illegal ones cause crime, ruin the economy cos money is spent on them when it should be on people who really need it, the poor, underprivileged, healthcare etc, but then again in America you have to pay for that too with the right kind of insurance, so maybe you should do something about your own countries imperfections before starting to preach to others

quote:

Originally posted by ferrycorstenfan They are not 'anti-immigrant' but believe me, the size of the usa has room for a lot more than Holland or the UK, the illegal ones cause crime, ruin the economy cos money is spent on them when it should be on people who really need it, the poor, underprivileged, healthcare etc, but then again in America you have to pay for that too with the right kind of insurance, so maybe you should do something about your own countries imperfections before starting to preach to others

actually this post is a perfect example of bigotry and xenophobia toward immigrants - always a bad thing, by the way.

Look what you wrote: "they cause crime, ruin the economy..."

I see the beginnings of hate & fascism in that post.

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There is a fundamental difference between European and American Immigration. Unfortunately Europe has NOT managed to successfully integrate its immigrants, whereas the US, since the beginnings of massive immgration waves at the turn of the century, has successfully established (sure, there are some flaws here and there) a multicultural society. Canada even topping that being probably the role-model multiculutral country.
But as I said, Europe was not successful and theres a huge tension going on in countires like Germany, France and Holland, especially in the big cities. How would you feel if the Immigrants rejected the adaption of their new countrie's language and culture? CVan you imagine that in cities like Berlin there are school where the majority speak Turkish, leading to a huge decrease in the quality of education? (would you like your child to learn under such circumstances?). What's extremely alarming is that Muslims in particular often totally isolate themselves which not rarely leads to extreme positions (as a kind of defense against the western culture surrounding them). Do you know how many Islamistic movements are growing in cities like Berlin, Paris and London?

And still, the dutch ARE the most liberal Europeans, also in matters of immigration. Compare them with my country, Austria, or Denmark and France, look at surveys and statistics where its clearly demonstrated that the Dutch are the least antisemitic/xenophoic Europeans.
My point is, that Europe has unfortunately navigated itself into a ver yuncomfortable position where theres currently no way back.

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quote:

Originally posted by Eugene actually this post is a perfect example of bigotry and xenophobia toward immigrants - always a bad thing, by the way. Look what you wrote: "they cause crime, ruin the economy..." I see the beginnings of hate & fascism in that post.

There are a great number of people who immigrated to this country and did so successful, they fit in with the current people, they work hard, and are a joy to have

HOWEVER there are also massive numbers of illegal immigrants coming over, that are costing this country a fortune, they are commiting crime, smuggling drugs in, taking massive handouts, and threatening the residents of this country with their hatred for us, about 10 days ago, some illegal immigrants who were suspected of terrorist activity were stormed in a house, one of the bastards stabbed a policeman and killed him, and this sort of thing should not have to be tolerated in any country on this planet. The economy is taking a massive hit, people are waiting YEARS for operations on the NHS, especially the elderly, a lot of who fought for this country during the wars, and when you see them dying because of lack of money to pay for their care, then some illegal going around with the money they have conned out of the government, it makes you sick.

So if wanting the UK to stay british, and people live in the way that has happened here for hundreds of years, makes me a facist or someone full of hate then fine, I'm guilty as charged, I do not live against immigration but against illegal immigration which is causing problems, and is not fair on the people who live here and contribute towards the country.

@ FerryCorstenFan:

No, it doesn't make you a fascist -- just someone who could potentially become one. In the 1930's the Germans wanted their country to stay "German" and not be "contaminated" by Jews...

@ TranceGiant:

First of all, Europe in general is more pro-Muslim compared to the USA, which is more pro-Israel. So, even if there are Muslim enclaves in big European cities, I think that doesn't bother a lot of Europeans THAT much. Europeans in general sympathize with the Palestinians and hate Sharon, for example. That's one point. Secondly, I find it interesting that when you talk about "them" you're referring to Muslims. What about us Jews? (I'm Jewish too by the way.) In the past we were as foreign to the Europeans as the Muslims are now -- and I think we still are. Keep in mind that when you say "Turkish schools" cause rightful indignation, somebody in Europe is saying the same about "Jewish schools" and neighborhoods. Or at least they were 50 years ago. History repeats itself.

I just think you have a double standard, and this isn't fair. You're using the same reasoning as your persecutors and enemies before World War II, when Jews were also living isolated and this bothered and antagonized the Germans.

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Last edited by Eugene on Jan-26-2003 at 17:16

Nope, mate.
Firstly, the European position towards the middle-east conflict has nothing to do with the immigration problem. In fact it indirectly has, but the other way around: Countires like France, where especially southern metropoles like Marseille have a Muslim majority might adjust their attitude towards various foreign plitical issues in accordance with the ethnical composition of their population. Which is actually just natural...
But u fail to see my point: Its "us" (I count myself as one, too..) Europeans who made today's problems possible, by not successfully integrating immigrants. Of course some simply reject any form of integration, but the majority didnt even get the chance. Cities like NYC and Toronto are MELTING pots, Paris and London are mosaics, where no piece will mix with the other.
The point you make about us Jews is not really true. Jews were not seen as foreigners, but as social outcasts, regardless of how much they tried to assimilate and integrate themselves. Paradoxically the emancipation in the late 1800's led to an INCREASE of anti-semitism....So this hatred is not based on "not being german" but on other factors (which can be discussed extensively, but not here n now...).
Look this subject is indeed a VERY sensitive one, it needs to be approached with great care and a constant awareness of what happened/could happen again. BUT simply closing eyes and ears is not the answer. Immigration IS a problem(problem in the sense of a controversial issue, a socialpolitical challenge..NOT something enitrely negative!) and ppl have to talk about it. Im clearly against populistic parties who take advantage and misuse ppl's fears on that issue, but I repeat: We must not ignore the threats and difficulties that immigration causes, BOTH for "us" and the immigrants themselves.
As I said, we missed our chance to shape a healthy multicultural society but that doesn't mean that we shouödn't try to improve things.

P.S: I was offered to attend a Jewish school in Vienna. I refused. I dont see a point in trying to isolate myself socially and avoid any contact with the ppl's whose country I call my own.

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quote:

Originally posted by TranceGiant The point you make about us Jews is not really true. Jews were not seen as foreigners, but as social outcasts, regardless of how much they tried to assimilate and integrate themselves. Paradoxically the emancipation in the late 1800's led to an INCREASE of anti-semitism....So this hatred is not based on "not being german" but on other factors (which can be discussed extensively, but not here n now...).

Yes, what you wrote is correct...

But many Muslims in Europe today also feel like "social outcasts." What if they try their best to adapt, to learn the language, -- but they still get singled out because of a darker skin color, accent, etc.? They still get labeled as "those illegal immigrants" who, as FerryCorstenFan wrote, "cause crime, ruin the economy..." See - they're also social outcasts...

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