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Izzy
Virtue & Vice



Registered: Apr 2001
Location: TX TA #5

quote:
Originally posted by Cyrus King
Izzy, Yoepus, Arbiter...and others... what do you think of all this?

firstly i want to say that basicly everything i belive in arbiter has already said in his two posts... though i cant let this by without saying it in my words.

if bush does indeed now go ahead with war plans then the fact that he is willing to sacrafice his political future and support from the populace shows his convection to what he thinks is right and that he is willing to lose everything for what he belives in (just like the tragic plays of theatre). you might not think it is right to go to war but you have to admire someone who stands up for what he belives is right, through thick and thin.

now seeing as the anti-war movement is succeeding to some extent there are a few things that dissapoint me. one is that it seems we are going to be staying in a state of suspense with no end truly coming about and this may last on for years and years. what is the point about dragging on something you can fix today? another thing that gets to me is that no real solution to core problems have been proposed. i feel as if the anti-war movement is stripping away one viable solution without bringing forth a new one to replace it.

My impression is that the UN is basicly just out to make sure iraq has no WOMD and most the members in the anti-war movement are trying to save the iraqi people from 'collateral damage' and stop american aggression just for the fact that is america and the actions are aggressive. both of these body's have failed to address and dare i say even bring a solution as to the other core issues at hand. how do you deal with someone who is defying the world? how do you bring about freedom and libirties to those who are suffering from tyranny and oppression? how do you stop a leader who is a genuine threat to world stability? as a person should saddam have to right to continue governing a country? even a simple question like, what should be done? there is a lack of answers to these questions, even all the governments involved (US included) have failed to bring up and talk about this issues.

too many people get caught in the details of specific countries, commadities such as oil, intentions like ruling the world and all the variable small issues. people should look at the bigger picture and disgard all of the above. the picture becomes crystal clear in that we as a world are trying to rid it of something bad, simple as that.

"Better to light a candle than curse the darkness."


___________________
If God is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.

Old Post Feb-16-2003 17:08 
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Fir3start3r
Armin Acolyte



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Toronto, ON, Canada



Basically my opinion on the whole thing is slowly changing towards no war as well.
Bush isn't finding what he wants in Iraq and even though that country is run by a dictator, he ain't got nothin' (yet).

The problem really isn't if Saddam has anything, its where is he hidin' it?? And until we find it, there's no reason for a war.


___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

Last edited by Fir3start3r on Feb-16-2003 at 17:56

Old Post Feb-16-2003 17:29  Canada
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LiquidX
It's All OvA!



Registered: Mar 2001
Location: In Ur Mind

quote:
Originally posted by Izzy
firstly i want to say that basicly everything i belive in arbiter has already said in his two posts... though i cant let this by without saying it in my words.

if bush does indeed now go ahead with war plans then the fact that he is willing to sacrafice his political future and support from the populace shows his convection to what he thinks is right and that he is willing to lose everything for what he belives in (just like the tragic plays of theatre). you might not think it is right to go to war but you have to admire someone who stands up for what he belives is right, through thick and thin.

now seeing as the anti-war movement is succeeding to some extent there are a few things that dissapoint me. one is that it seems we are going to be staying in a state of suspense with no end truly coming about and this may last on for years and years. what is the point about dragging on something you can fix today? another thing that gets to me is that no real solution to core problems have been proposed. i feel as if the anti-war movement is stripping away one viable solution without bringing forth a new one to replace it.

My impression is that the UN is basicly just out to make sure iraq has no WOMD and most the members in the anti-war movement are trying to save the iraqi people from 'collateral damage' and stop american aggression just for the fact that is america and the actions are aggressive. both of these body's have failed to address and dare i say even bring a solution as to the other core issues at hand. how do you deal with someone who is defying the world? how do you bring about freedom and libirties to those who are suffering from tyranny and oppression? how do you stop a leader who is a genuine threat to world stability? as a person should saddam have to right to continue governing a country? even a simple question like, what should be done? there is a lack of answers to these questions, even all the governments involved (US included) have failed to bring up and talk about this issues.

too many people get caught in the details of specific countries, commadities such as oil, intentions like ruling the world and all the variable small issues. people should look at the bigger picture and disgard all of the above. the picture becomes crystal clear in that we as a world are trying to rid it of something bad, simple as that.

"Better to light a candle than curse the darkness."


Trust me, Bush wont sacrifice his political interest to do whats right. IF it was so, he would've done it by letting the re-count and or RE-Vote when he was elected, yet he found it more then a fair win, which we all know .. it was a pretty bad dirty win. To another extend, to show you that he wont sacrifice his political re-election, shows it today that he is even softing the U.N. Resolution. This is new news for today. I do agree that if he does find that its the right and moral thing to do and attack Iraq, not mattering what the outcomes for him would be, it would really be a very memorable and rightous moment for Bush. But, Mr. Bush didnt even show his face on Saturday, exept to say to the people not to worry about the ORANGE code alert. The only one, who really stood up and kept up to his saying, was Tony Blair, who actually commented on the protestings, but Bush ? ? Bush was too worried with his administration and thinking on whats the best thing to dofor his interests, and the outcomes. And now, he comes up with a softend resolution. So I doubt now, that he is doing it for the moral and all the right things you said IZZY, which would be neat, but he is not gonna do it. A president does what popular sovereignty tells him .. its democracy, and if the majority of Americans want something, he should do it.. if he doesnt, he does not represent what the Republic of the United States stands for.


___________________
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Old Post Feb-16-2003 17:50  Chile
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Matt
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Nov 2001
Location: Toronto, Canada

quote:
Originally posted by TuanAnh213
the problem is i have yet to see some other culture besides american culture that seems to captivate other cultures around the world. For instance, american movies (hollywood) are well known all around the world while movies from other countries, nobody gives an ass about them. American culture just seems to have the kind of "charisma", i dont' know how to explain it.


Yes movies are a good thing in our culture, but I wouldn't call it a 100% American thing.

The thing is that American culture puts way too much value into wealth, power, and material. Are you acknowledged if you live a happy life, raise a family, and die happily? No. You get applauded for buying things. Cars, movies, TVs, furniture, designer clothing, etc. Being a good consumer is the American dream.

Its not just an American thing really, its a problem with human nature, which is probably why others are attracted to American culture.


___________________
//..

Old Post Feb-16-2003 23:57  Canada
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Cyrus King
Anti NeoCon Addict



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Toronto

quote:
Originally posted by TuanAnh213
the problem is i have yet to see some other culture besides american culture that seems to captivate other cultures around the world. For instance, american movies (hollywood) are well known all around the world while movies from other countries, nobody gives an ass about them. American culture just seems to have the kind of "charisma", i dont' know how to explain it.


America invests alot of $$$ in order to express that culture on a global scale.


___________________
"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V

Old Post Feb-17-2003 05:13 
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tiesto14
Let The Music Play



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: The Palladium New York City

quote:
Originally posted by TuanAnh213
can you explain to me how come all of a sudden Iraq is such a big issue as it is when george bush's redneck ass comes tumbling into the presidency by mistake? what a coincidence that george dubbya's pops was also involved in a war with saddam and that saddam tried to kill herbert. this war is a joke, bush is a joke, and non-americans have the right to criticize this government



I beleive it started in the Reagan administration before Bush 1 was president....during he iran/iraq war.

it was also important in the Clinton administration aswell....i beleive Clinton was aware of the CIA planning an assasination of Hussein...

Old Post Feb-17-2003 05:49  Bahamas
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tiesto14
Let The Music Play



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: The Palladium New York City

quote:
Originally posted by Mosaic
amen.

I think the USA is the much more serious issue. I would much rather see the USA disarm themselves of nuclear/chemical/biological weapons instead of Iraq. After all, the USA is the only country to actually use weapons of mass destruction in war.


not true...Saddam Hussein used chemical weapons against Iran....

quote:
Originally posted by Mosaic That is a world I do not wish to live in. (I realize many Americans don't share these stereotypical values, but you know what I mean)


I agree many aspects of the American way are bad...however when it comes to prospering finacially and becoming what you want, aswell as having many freedoms, is very important...and how one can live without that is a sin...we ALL deserve to have that.

Old Post Feb-17-2003 05:53  Bahamas
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tiesto14
Let The Music Play



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: The Palladium New York City

quote:
Originally posted by LiquidX
Arbiter, if it werent for 9/11, Bush's administration wouldnt even be attacking Iraq, he would have way to many domestical problems.. he had many before 9/11, but 9/11 was like a SAVE BY THE BELL kind of thing.


how can you say such a horrendous thing...to refer to 9.11 as being "saved by the bell".....


quote:
Originally posted by LiquidX then he would be all over other countries such as North Korea for an example, China , and most recently, Venezuela or better yet, Colombia.


One thing at a time...


quote:
Originally posted by LiquidX the US helps, yes, but they always , as I see it, help, but yet, the US will win something as it helps..


show me one country that is selfless...everyone has a hidden ajenda of some wort.


quote:
Originally posted by LiquidX If Saddam gives the US the OIL fields, I can BET that Bush will not take Saddam out .



well the U.S. gets only like 17% of its oil from Iraq....so i doubt it...

Old Post Feb-17-2003 05:58  Bahamas
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tiesto14
Let The Music Play



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: The Palladium New York City

Best thing the U.S. could do ..would be to send in CIA or Navy Seal or Army Rangers to asasinate Hussein...no civilians die...no soldiers on either side die...and Hussein is removed and we can all move on...

But thats my thoughts......

Old Post Feb-17-2003 06:05  Bahamas
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TuanAnh213
ahhh...Du Du Du Du Du



Registered: Dec 2002
Location: Bay Area, CA...Cheah!!

quote:
Originally posted by tiesto14
Best thing the U.S. could do ..would be to send in CIA or Navy Seal or Army Rangers to asasinate Hussein...no civilians die...no soldiers on either side die...and Hussein is removed and we can all move on...

But thats my thoughts......



there was an act...fuck i forgot what it was which was passed by congress during the 70s when the CIA tried to assasinate some dictator but failed. basically the CIA has no right to conduct assasinations like it did during the 60s and 70s...those times are over


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Old Post Feb-17-2003 06:19  United States
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tiesto14
Let The Music Play



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: The Palladium New York City

quote:
Originally posted by TuanAnh213
there was an act...fuck i forgot what it was which was passed by congress during the 70s when the CIA tried to assasinate some dictator but failed. basically the CIA has no right to conduct assasinations like it did during the 60s and 70s...those times are over




too bad...they should start it again...it would save hundreds of thousands of lives....and money..and time....

Old Post Feb-17-2003 06:25  Bahamas
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Az
took me all the way back



Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Walking to John O'Groats for some spastics

quote:
Originally posted by tiesto14
too bad...they should start it again...it would save hundreds of thousands of lives....and money..and time....

what the fuck? what gives them the right to?
quote:
not true...Saddam Hussein used chemical weapons against Iran....

he used them against the Kurds in northern Iraq, again America sold him the chemical weapons, and sold him more when they found out he was doing it.......
quote:
how can you say such a horrendous thing...to refer to 9.11 as being "saved by the bell".....

Everyones gotta stop tip toeing around 9/11. Do you possibly think that anyone in the US would support attacking Iraq if it wasn't for 9/11? thats why the link between Iraq and Al Qaeda is so damn important to Bush and Powell.......
on an interesting note, something I read in renegades post.
Nearly 1,500 contracts for iraqi oil were put forward to the UN sanctions committee the day after George W Bushs pro war speech. Not for oil my arse

Old Post Feb-17-2003 13:32 
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