quote:

Just did a quick search on yahoo and couldn't find any sources on these incidents. Can you please post a link to sources that covered this story? Appreciated

your wish is my command

http://www.logogo.net/liberty.htm

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/04/23/li...tack/index.html


http://www.jajz-ed.org.il/juice/service/week2.html

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/lavon.html

http://www.intellex.com/~rigs/page1/lavon.htm

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How can any of you say anything? and that little 'not like what they did in 1948'! YOUR SO IGNORANT I FEEL SORRY FOR YOU!!! HOW ACN WAKE UP EVERYDAY NOT KNOWING ANYTHING ABOUT WHAT YOU TALK ABOUT!?!?!?

Dont I. Dont I. Taken from Righteous Victims by Benny Morris

at p 208

Deir Yassin is remembered not as a military operation but rather for the atrocities committed by the IZL and LHI troops during and immediately after the drawn out battle:whole families were riddled with bullets and grenade fragments and buried when houses were blown up on top of them, men, women, and children were mowed down as they emerged from houses individuals were taken aside and shot. At the end of the battle, groups of old men, women, and children were trucked through West Jerusalem streets in a kind of victory parade and then dumped in Arab East Jerusalem. According to Jerusalem Shai commander Levy (reporting on April 12) the conquest of the village was carried out with great cruelty. Whole familes women, old people children were killed, and there were piles of dead. Some of the prisoners moved to places of incarceration, including women and children, were murdered viciously by their captors"

The commander of the IZL later went on to become Prime Minister of Israel- Menachin Begin.

Since we were also talking about Sharon, as an army officer he was responsible for the massacre of an arab village called Qibya:

Morris at p278

"Sharon and the IDF subsequently claimed the villagers had hidden in cellars and attics and there troops had been unaware of this when they blew up the buildings. But in truth the troops had moved from house to house, firing through windows and doorways, and Jordanian pathologists reported that most of the dead had been killed by bullets and shrapnel rather than by falling masonry or explosions. In any event, the operational orders, from CO central Command to the units involved, dated October 13, had explicitly odered "destruction and maximum killing"

And Sharon is now the Prime Minister. Maybe, just maybe the Arabs might know what happened to them at Deir Yassin, maybe, just maybe the arabs know what happened to them at Qibya.

I dont recall who said it but it is a truism. "Times change, but people dont"

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter To me its unconscionable why people keep making excuses for the Palestinians behavior. The fact of the matter is that it's no way to behave under any circumstances - period. It doesn't matter how oppressed they are. For fuck sake, there have been thousands of peoples in the history of the world who have suffered more brutal oppression than the Palestinians and yet who had the moral fiber not to resort to terrorism. Frankly, I believe anyone who sympathizes with the Palestinians is part of the problem because they're encouraging this sort of behavior which ought not to be encouraged. Arbiter

I thought the second part of my post was clear enough: i do NOT justify terrorism. killing innocent israelis is as bad as killin innocent palestinians, or somalis for that matter...
i was just trying to make some people understand the action reaction bit, and explain the reason some palestinians do what they do. Maybe tackling the reasons might be the mature way of dealing with the problem? rather than continuing to kill their innocent, or, for that matter, going to war with iraq.

quote:

I understand that you may oppose his opinions, but comparing him to a Nazi is ridiculous. I get extremely offend by that comparison and am kindly asking everyone to drop it!

No. Anyone who calls Palestinians, or any other people, "the pigs" and says that "these dirtbags need to be stomped out" only out of some self-given right is a nazi, and is advocating the same thing hitler & co were in the '30 and '40s. oh, and sharon is a war criminal, who uses exactly the same rethoric any other repressive leader uses. do i need to publish facts? anyone who doesn't know his record is ignorant, not me.

quote:

A shit like you at Oxford? God Save the Queen!

that's right, m8, a degree, a masters and now a phd. sod the queen, what r your qualifications?

quote:

CONQUERED THE AREA OF BIBLICAL ISRAEL, IN A DEFENSIVE BATTLE!!!

a defensive battle? u mean kicking out a people who have been there 4 2000 years is a defensive battle? there's twisted logic for u. do i need to define the mechanics of logic? can't be arsed... extremists like u only understand their own little thing.

quote:

How can any of you say anything? and that little 'not like what they did in 1948'! YOUR SO IGNORANT I FEEL SORRY FOR YOU!!! HOW ACN WAKE UP EVERYDAY NOT KNOWING ANYTHING ABOUT WHAT YOU TALK ABOUT!?!?!?

see above. i don't expect u to know this (u don't know me at all) but i'm certainly not ignorant. well, it depends... we r all ignorant to a certain degree, but i know my limits. do u know yours? doesn't look like it to me.

now the best bit, the one i was waiting for:

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But as we always see, even when Israel is mentioned, but the SUBJECT IS ABOUT PALESTINIANS THREATENING AMERICA, we find that it comes back to bashing jews and israel. Give it up you anti-semite lowlives!! YOU HAVE BEEN TRYING TO DESTROY THE JEWISH NATION FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS BUT IT NEVER WORKED!!!

yes, the moment u criticise a jew, or the israeli government it takes seconds b4 u get branded an anti-semite. people like u USE the holocaust as a justification of your views, and to shut up criticism. no, i'm not anything like an anti-semite: i have jewish relatives, some of whome have been in concentration camps, i have jewish friends (one of my best m8s, in fact). i also have moslem and hindi friends, and 1 who claims to b a jedi. having been a victim of a crime, allbeit one of the worst crimes in history, does not justify the oppression of another people.

quote:

YOU WANT MORE? OR DO YOU WANT TO CONTINEU BASHING MY PEOPLE BASED ON YOUR MISINFORMATION??? I WILL GIVE YOU HUNDREDS OF RESEARCHABLE AND BACKABLE QUOTES FROM ARABS ABOUT THE TRUTH

THE TRUTH!!! THE truth... so u believe your truth is the only one? is it possible that in this day and age people can still b wholly convinced that there is only one truth, and that theirs is the right one? arab integralists believe they have the truth, jewish integralists belive they have the truth. so they go about killing eachother in the name of truth. maybe the truth is that u're BOTH wrong?

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NFA

quote:

DROP PILLS NOT BOMBS

quote:

Originally posted by occrider I'm a pussy. I'm not gonna even TOUCH this topic.

quote:

Although I will say that arbiter presents a very convincing and coherent argument. I won't go so far to say that I understand what kind of situation that they are in that would warrant such tactics, however I will say that perhaps their method should be examined more so than their cause.

(this goes for both sides involved in the conflict)

again, you take the words right out of my mouth.

All I can add to this discussion is one word: compassion

quote:

Jews should act like jews, after all they are the only civilization that exists from the biblical ages, (as noted by christians around the world, and muslims in fact too!)

However, the only civilization that continually lasted to these days from ancient times unchanged is the Chinese civilization.

quote:

I'm sure with thousands of years of leadership and stories and books, and laws, (jewish law was what the ancient babylonians based their laws from, and thus we have the roots of todays modern laws) so why don't the jews act according to their own laws? but instead take a 'remixed' version done by whatever handful of countries that they can dwell in?

Ever heard of progress? Even if the jewish laws were the base for modern laws (although I really think Roman laws here had much more influence) that doesn't mean they shouldn't be changed or that they are the best ever created.

Btw, I can't help but notice the astounding similarity between melech_mike's and shlomo_hamalech's posts, infact they're so much similar that it seems to me like mike has taken another alias. First, the nicknames, melech_mike and shlomo_hamalech. They're both written in a same way and (ha)malech sounds very similar to melech. Both are writing god as g-d, because of the idea that god's name not only shouldn't be spoken, but that it shouldn't be written as well. Not many people share that opinion. Furthermore, shlomo and mike have a very very similar stance regarding Israel and Palestine. Some quotes are also very interesting:

mike:

quote:

We have something that the other nations lack. We were chosen for the task to be G-d's "emissaries" to the rest of the world.

shlomo:

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Jews should act like jews, after all they are the only civilization that exists from the biblical ages

mike:

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This is our land... Not Arafat's!

shlomo:

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Everything on the east side of the jordan river was designated to its rightful owner.

There are surely more, but I'm too lazy to search.

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter Last time I checked there weren't any Native Americans going around trying to blow up American civilians. I wonder why that might be. Maybe it's because when fate handed them a shitty fortune, they decided to try and make the best of it despite their misfortunes instead of just feeling sorry for themselves and projecting their frustrations onto others in the form of violence. Is that too much to ask from the Palestinians? I don't think so. I'll start caring about Palestinians problems when they start acting mature and/or responsible.

There are few factors involved. First one is that the US has killed more than 90% of native americans. Second one is that native americans were on a very primitive level, they weren't organized like one homogenous grop, but instead consisted up of many loosley alligned tribes. Also I don't see how they could have tried to commit suicide bombing acts since they hardly had any gunpowder at all, not to mention any other more highly flamable/combustible substances. Also they lacked the ability to produce those as well.

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1+1=10

well said tito.

the most dangerous thing in the world is religious fanaticism, be it from christians, moslems, jews or whatever. our two (?) israeli "friends" r clearly religious fanatics, who c no reason and take on the dogmas tought to them as irrefutable truths. it's because of these people (on either side of the wall) that innocents r still being slaughtered and maimed, and if there is a hell i'm sure they will b the first to go there.

btw. why tito? he was a dictator as well...

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NFA

quote:

DROP PILLS NOT BOMBS

@NFA
Hehe, the reason I'm suspicious of the likes of you is the way you easily drop Nazi-comparisons. Note that in hardly any other conflict these way of "arguing" is used, it's only the case when Israeli actions are condemned. I've said it zillions of times in this forum but I'll say it again: Comparing anything(!) and anyone(!) with Nazis themselves or their actions, is ultimately playing down Nationalsozialism rather than "criticizing" anything else. Why dont you Israel "citics" finally get that in yor head? These comparisons don't impress or make your statements any truer or stronger, they merely disqualify you as some1 who can be taken seriously.
We've had tons of war-criminal discussions already, feel free to search this forum and discover how I shut up the mouths of many people who called Sharon a war-criminal and/or tried to contruct a correlation between Sharon's role in 1982 and today's Terrorism Industry in "Palestine".

Look, by "explaining" Terrorism you end up justifying it. Even if you don't intend to (although you surely do subconsciously)- the terrorists will interpret it this way. Forget it, man: People who are brainwashed enough to lose their lives for goals like these cannot be rationally neogtiated with. People in this position reached the point of no return; in fact they aren't to blame anyway. It's the people behind, the brainwashers and sick fundamentalists, who must be eliminated. By carefully studying the history of the conflict (the last decade will do it) you'll come to the conclusion that any concessions made to Terrorists were interpreted as weakness, thereby motivating the killings even more.
Just look at the very recent developments: In march 2002 a one sided cease fire proclaimed by Israel led to the biggest errorism wave in Israeli history: Almost 200 people were killed within 4 weeks. After an Israeli invasion and a reconquerment of the territories terrorism has almost halted. People who feared that the Invasion will just add more to the anger and hatred, and consequently will increase the rate of terrorism now admit that they've been wrong: The successful solution was the military one.
HOWEVER the final peace solution can never be reached by tanks and helicopters. But to reach that stage of diplomacy, a certain basis must be established - by military means.

Oh and try to think of your "explanation" this way: A girl is wearing a mini-skirt, looks awesome, plays with her legs and maintains eye contact with a guy next to her. They guy jumps on her and rapes her. Will you say that the girl is partially guilty of her own rape? Will you say that she provoked that crime? I hope you don't.

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"Those are my principles, if you don't like them... well, I have others.”

MELEK-MIKE i knew you were cheating on me!!!!! WHAT THE FUCK!!!


this slowmo- malek character is getting raped up the ass right now.... he is so brainwashed by fanaticism that he seems to self-righteously delete the palestinian plight and struggle.

Slow-malek...

Please so us a favor and terrorize yourself... your taking up our precious oxygen.

PS.... thanks for the set!!!

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"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V

quote:

Originally posted by ahlamalek why don't the moderators ban people that have nothing to do with trance and who post in politics.... this has became ridiculous. after melech_mike now this shlomo_shit dude

you all requested this forum, I was one of the only mods to say that this forum would be a bad idea, as far as I was concerned anything that has to do with politics or religion on a trance / music based forum is a BAD idea, spesh one that is as global as tranceaddict which attracts ppl from many races / religious backgrounds.

There will never ever be fair point of veiw, each member of each religion / race will be biased towards his own way of life and in some parts of the world, like the palestine / israli conflict, there is going to be very very strong veiws held by both sides, if they cant sort it out with thier leaders and debate on a governmental scale, how on earth do u expect it to be solved in a trance forum ?

The mods of these forums can only do so much, do u expect us all to be resident in this forum 24 / 7 so if one remark is made that is found offensive by 25% of you can then be deleted, then you are mistaken.
How are the mods of this board expected to act ? Us mods are also of different backgrounds and races and one mod may feel that a person has a justified point of veiw where as another mod may take offence.

The guidelines we follow are that we will wont let personal attacks take place, althou they do happen, we acknowledge that and do our best to prevent it.
But how can i be expected to delete / edit melech_mike's posts for example when He is stating his side of events, what makes his posts different to say cyrus_king's who is expressing his side of the story?


This forum is extremly hard to moderate, us mods have to be as fair as we can, we have to let both sides express their veiws, we do our best.
and for some of the younger mods who do not have the experience of dealing with political debate, or have the education to percive that 2 different cultures will have 2 completely differeing ideals of how life should be, how can they be expected to mod this forum justly ?

At the end of the day, if there is something that is offensive to u, PM a mod, make it know to that mod why u find it offensive and if the mod finds your complaint valid, then we will do something about it.

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My Mixcloud Profile My Twitch Channel

quote:

quote: Jews should act like jews, after all they are the only civilization that exists from the biblical ages, (as noted by christians around the world, and muslims in fact too!) However, the only civilization that continually lasted to these days from ancient times unchanged is the Chinese civilization.

then you can include the Hindus in the west as well. Although their lifestyle has changed, but many of their original attributes are still there, which I'm sure can also be said about the chinese civilization.

excellent rebuttal tho tito.

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trance giant:

in telling s'body he/she is a nazi, i'm not arguing anything. i'm telling them they are nazis, full stop. i don't expect to change their views or get any sort of intelligent debate out of them, because by definintion nazis don't do that. and no, i don't reserve this expression exclusively for israelis. i'll just as happily call saddam hussein a nazi, or mugabe. i'm not downplaying anything: they're low-life and i tell them they're low-life.
and sharon is one of them, wether u like it or not, no matter how much sophism u stick into it.

by making a point i'm not justifying anything. only a person who is not capable of seeing more than 1 point of view can accuse me of condoning terrorism. i don't (again ). i simply hope people will b able to understand that maybe they are to blame as well, not only always the other side. a lot of terrorists are evil (nazis, if u like), but r u not capable of seriously asking WHY they are evil???
it's like condemming a mugger who has beaten up a pensioner in the street without asking why he did it. maybe he's shit poor? maybe he's shit poor because others haven't been arsed to give him an opportunity, because they were rich anyway?

u, on the other hand, appear to justify the war against palestinians, and in a way that has so many pitfalls i wonder why i bother pointing some out. of course terrorism stopped when israel attacked: the palestinians were too busy getting slaughtered and counting their dead children to do anything else. the military solution was the wrong one, because they made more orphans who will then want revenge. ever heard of the expression vicious circle. and don't u c that this war CANNOT B WON??? more killing, more martyrs, more revenge, more killing and so on. nobody will ever get them all, terrorist will keep coming, from other parts of the world if necessary, as long as u keep giving them a reason. and everytime more come they will be even more angry and fanatic, as the graves of their loved ones multiply, and as their sworn enemies steal more and more of their land and flattern more and more of their homes.
no. the last ten years of conflict are NOT enough to understand anything. the fatal error was made 50 odd years ago, when we british haded over a parcel of land populated by armed moslems, many of them fanatics, to a bunch of armed jews, many of them fanatics.

let me change conflict, to see if u can understand it this way. switch palestine for ireland, and israel for england.
we went in there, we treated them like shit for ages. we brought famine and death. we repressed their revolts in blood. though things chaged slightly, in the mid 20th century, catholics were still treated like shit. result: constant conflict and terrorism. note: i do not condone irish terrorist action, they r a nasty bunch of murderers. what was obtained was done so by other means. so when did a peace process become a possibility? when we pulled out (partially) and began to try and ensure fairness and equal opportunity to irish, scottish and english, catholics and protestants alike. granted, there's still a long way to go. but the vicious circle is slowly being eroded and a peaceful solution finally appears feasible.
i take it u would have continued stamping on them until there weren't any left? 'coz that's the only time they would have stopped fighting, just like the palestinians will keep fighting as long as they are treated as they are.

as for your girl example, u must have been wanking off on that one. i'm not going to bother arguing with such an evident provocation and such flawed logic.

oh, and did u vote haider in the last election? i wouldn't b surprised...

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NFA

quote:

DROP PILLS NOT BOMBS

How did you know? Yes, I'm a Jewish masochist and therefore vote and support Haider's Freedom Party!
How funny and original of you







Okay, to be honest..I voted for the social democrats, sorry to disappoint you, mister....
The girl example is a perfect analogy to your way of "explaining" such inexcusable cruelities. And no, I don't really need to wank to my own logical analogies.

As for the "NAZI" word: You simply didnt get my point. I said that your inflationairy use of "NAZI" leads to a loss of its (negative) "value". Just like with money, ya know? Imagine when some day "Nazi" will be used like "twat", having lost all its hisorical backround and its power. The power of remembering, The power of learning from the past! All that will be harmed if guys like you keep dropping these terms inappropiately and extensively.
And on top of that you might and in fact surely do hurt many Jewish people's feelings when reaching the peak of perversion by comparing Jewish/Israelis to their own murderers from the past. And yes, some ppl deliberately take advantage of this perverse "irony". And it makes me sick.
I'm waiting for your elaboration concerning Sharon's "nazi" nature. I'm even more eager to hear how you're able to condemn Sharon while not mentioning Arafat a single time. Smells like bias.

I repeat: Even if you claim to merely look for the "real reason" behind terrorism, you ultimately reward it by assuming a logical explanation which ALWAYS ends up in justification! What has a logical explanation is logical and therefore justified, capisce?
Thus I always shiver when I hear shit like "yes this is horrible..BUT". There's no fucking "but"! In cases like Terrorism, the cruelst of cruel things, one MUST treat the problem with a "black-n-white" right/wrong approach. There can't be a compromise when it comes to the systematic, deliberate killing of civilians.

When I told you to look at the past decade, I was referring to the Palestinian Terrorism only. The entire conflict is much more complex and about 100 years old. But the Terrorism problem (the one originating in the occupied territories) starts off in 1994, after the Oslo agreement. Now analyse the action-reaction mechanism with regards to Palestinian Terrorism and you'll clearly see that it always INCREASED when diplomacy was the main approach. It's just a fucking historical fact! Look what happened after Israel's single-handed withdrawal from southern Lebanon in 2000: No end of Hezballah strikes, and a motivation for the Palestnians who think they could achieve the same by immitating the Lebanese Terrorism "policy". The new Intifada was born!
You demonstrate a huge deficit of knowledge about both the mentality and the infrastructure of Arab Terror: Hamas, Islamic Djihad et al. are "intelligent" "political" organs with a clear structure. They recruit and instrumenalize young boys, brainwash them and cynically use them as human bombs. This shows us that Terrorism is NOT a spontaneous expression of frustration. It doesn't grown on trees and grows with anger! It's merely a "policy" carried out by the heads of Hamas etc. (who cooperate with Arafat btw.)
ALL(!) Israeli actions were therefore targeted at their heads, headquarters, infrastructure. No "war on the palestinian people" has been proclamied. Never.

As I said: As soon as this desease called Terror has been eliminated, diplomacy can come into play and give the poor Palestnian People everything they've been deprived of for decades (but not only by Israel, think of their Arab "brothers" too). End of fucking story.

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"Those are my principles, if you don't like them... well, I have others.”