quote:

Originally posted by occrider Inadvertentely harbors terrorists. Finances? Maybe certain individuals but I'm certain not the government. Proof on any of this? Last I checked Pakistan was a major ally of the US ... well at least the prez.

haha, anotherway gave you the same link i was going to give you.
Anyway, before 9/11, Pakistan was one of the countries on the top of the list that was tought to harbor and finance terrorism.
If you want more info
just got to CNN.com (or any other popular news agency)
and search for Pakistan AND terrorism and you will get a whole slew of links about it.
Also everyone was shocked when Pakistan offered its support to the US in its war against the Taliban. I think they are just pretending to be our friends to save their own skins and prevent the United States from sticking their nose up their ass.

this is really interesting, i think i shall come to this forum more often

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Originally posted by montie haha, anotherway gave you the same link i was going to give you. Anyway, before 9/11, Pakistan was one of the countries on the top of the list that was tought to harbor and finance terrorism. If you want more info just got to CNN.com (or any other popular news agency) and search for Pakistan AND terrorism and you will get a whole slew of links about it. Also everyone was shocked when Pakistan offered its support to the US in its war against the Taliban. I think they are just pretending to be our friends to save their own skins and prevent the United States from sticking their nose up their ass.

Well I don't doubt that they had connections with the Taliban before 9/11. However I doubt that they (the government) harbors hostility towards the US. And I REALLY doubt that they sponsor terrorist attacks against the US. That's one good way to get a solid beat down and I don't think Pakistan would take a risk like that. If they did there's no way in hell they are still doing it now so it would be pretty useless to bomb them.

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Well I don't doubt that they had connections with the Taliban before 9/11. However I doubt that they (the government) harbors hostility towards the US. And I REALLY doubt that they sponsor terrorist attacks against the US. That's one good way to get a solid beat down and I don't think Pakistan would take a risk like that. If they did there's no way in hell they are still doing it now so it would be pretty useless to bomb them.

I don't think the government directly finances and habors terrorism like the Taliban did, but it does behind closed doors, and is a key player (thru many means) in the whole terrorism business.

I'm not arguing the point that we should attack pakistan. I was just bringing it up to show that it is much more powerful militarily than Iraq and more of a threat to us than Iraq is (a war with Pakistan would be catstrophic, they have a large powerful military along with nukes). This was to help argue the point that Saddam and Iraq aren't nearly as much of a threat to us as Pakistan (along with N. Korea, and Iran) is to us, and thus we think we can easily win a war against them (Iraq) thus thats one of the major reasons we are going after them.

i only saw part of a 60 minutes (america) segment that had a ww2 veteran talking about war, france, iraq etc.

all i can remember was his last line

'france hasn't earned the right to oppose war with iraq, but i have'

france, germany, russia, three of the countries which probably harbour the most recent historical resentment towards the US, are the loudest voices of anti-war.

hmmmm.

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Originally posted by sifntj0r i only saw part of a 60 minutes (america) segment that had a ww2 veteran talking about war, france, iraq etc. all i can remember was his last line 'france hasn't earned the right to oppose war with iraq, but i have' france, germany, russia, three of the countries which probably harbour the most recent historical resentment towards the US, are the loudest voices of anti-war. hmmmm.

"earned the right to oppose war"
thats the biggest load of self rightous, nationalistic shit i've heard in a while.

So we shouldn't listen to them because they surrendered to Germany in WW2?
What are we, a bunch of children?
Thats an incredibly childish way to view the world and our relations with countries.

This is a very new IDea to the world. No one can be 100% right, but lets consider the fact that countries that are run corruptly, that have power which allows them to do what they want, and they use that power to harm other nations or even harbour groups that harm other nations or people, then we as freedom loving people have an obligation to be involved, and go beyond our self-interests to protect the human race. We from europe, america, wherever have to realize now that the world through the internet and quick transportation are slowly becoming 1 large entity. Not as seperate as before. We now face the challange to stand up for those in parts of the world that suffer from extreme regimes. If Germany in the 30's was taken out of power, millions of deaths could of been prevented. If the extremist gov't in afgan was taken apart earlier, then 9/11 would not have happened. Similarily, if the regimes of those like Saddam and others who threaten stability of the world are not taken out, who can be accurate in guessing the atrocities and genocites that will happen?

We must work together to rid the world of countries that allow this to happen. The problem is the governments. They may release statements saying one thing, but intel and defectors and various other intelligence methods discover where they are being harboured. And a more hawkish approach must be taken now to preven the furthering of economic losses, and worsly, lives.

Shlomo Eliyahu

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Originally posted by montie "earned the right to oppose war" thats the biggest load of self rightous, nationalistic shit i've heard in a while. So we shouldn't listen to them because they surrendered to Germany in WW2? What are we, a bunch of children? Thats an incredibly childish way to view the world and our relations with countries.

I agree that that isn't the way we should operate but show some respect for our veterans. You have no idea what he went through and if I had to fight through shit for 4 years to liberate another country, I think that I would be entitled to a little respect for my opinions.

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Originally posted by occrider I agree that that isn't the way we should operate but show some respect for our veterans. You have no idea what he went through and if I had to fight through shit for 4 years to liberate another country, I think that I would be entitled to a little respect for my opinions.

I agree with Occrider (surprisingly)... war vets deserve the highest levels of respect and honor. They have real experience, and know how it is to see your friends die on the battlefield. But as an added point, I think their opinions should be added in the picture as a veterans view, but in a battle of today, where a veteran is not involved directly, there must be only the experts making the decisions, no matter how different they are from the veterans. The experts are the ones with all the information at hand to make the judgements... Also, a veteran battled in a different time, a different world. Today there are aspects that were not existant back then....

Shlomo Eliyahu

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Originally posted by shlomo_hamalech I agree with Occrider (surprisingly)... war vets deserve the highest levels of respect and honor. They have real experience, and know how it is to see your friends die on the battlefield. But as an added point, I think their opinions should be added in the picture as a veterans view, but in a battle of today, where a veteran is not involved directly, there must be only the experts making the decisions, no matter how different they are from the veterans. The experts are the ones with all the information at hand to make the judgements... Also, a veteran battled in a different time, a different world. Today there are aspects that were not existant back then.... Shlomo Eliyahu

You said it right, experts, then why is BUSH so mad at Greenspan? He's an expert.. yet Bush is angry at him for heaving him refuse his tax plan cut.. but I know, this is not that topic. I think there's 2 kinds of experts, the TRU experts, and the FALSE/INTEREST experts, the thing is trying to figure out who is the right one.

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Originally posted by LiquidX You said it right, experts, then why is BUSH so mad at Greenspan? He's an expert.. yet Bush is angry at him for heaving him refuse his tax plan cut.. but I know, this is not that topic. I think there's 2 kinds of experts, the TRU experts, and the FALSE/INTEREST experts, the thing is trying to figure out who is the right one.

I aree ... Greenspan is the shit and knows all. If he told me that a tax hike of 20% would stimulate the economy I would follow him in a heart beat hehe. Hell I probably have a better understanding economics than bush. With respects to veterans I don't think at all that they are the experts. I don't think we should follow everything that they say. I just think that they deserve more respect than society gives them.