Ok I haven't read the book but I read the cover, flap, back etc. My question is ... does it seem odd to anybody that immigrants to America in general are far more patriotic than Americans born and raised? I'm not talking about the stupid Iraq issue but American patriotism in general. Like at recent times, whenever I go to a 4th of July parade or something it almost seems like minorities and immigrants alike outnumber the white people. Also most critics of the United States are predominantly white, born and raised Americans. At least that's my perspective ... Are we perhaps spoiled or unlearned? Sometimes I wonder why it is that protestors (again I'm generalizing beyond Iraq) in general are typically white, college, under age 30, students. Sure you can say that college students in general are more openminded and worldly than the rest of the population but if you think about it, those less openminded and less worldly 50 year olds were the activists from the 70's!!! You would think that THEY of all people would be the first to protest an injustice. Could it be that as 20 year olds we still adhere to idealistic beliefs that don't really apply to the world in which we live in? Yes we are intelligent but are we really WISE?

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Originally posted by occrider Ok I haven't read the book but I read the cover, flap, back etc. My question is ... does it seem odd to anybody that immigrants to America in general are far more patriotic than Americans born and raised? I'm not talking about the stupid Iraq issue but American patriotism in general. Like at recent times, whenever I go to a 4th of July parade or something it almost seems like minorities and immigrants alike outnumber the white people. Also most critics of the United States are predominantly white, born and raised Americans. At least that's my perspective ... Are we perhaps spoiled or unlearned? Sometimes I wonder why it is that protestors (again I'm generalizing beyond Iraq) in general are typically white, college, under age 30, students. Sure you can say that college students in general are more openminded and worldly than the rest of the population but if you think about it, those less openminded and less worldly 50 year olds were the activists from the 70's!!! You would think that THEY of all people would be the first to protest an injustice. Could it be that as 20 year olds we still adhere to idealistic beliefs that don't really apply to the world in which we live in? Yes we are intelligent but are we really WISE?

Well most immigrants come to america thinking that this is the place of opportunity and where they can make it big. most of them are escaping from oppression or poverty and thus they think if they come here they are coming to a wonderful place where they will be "free." America has always been thought of the place where one can come for freedom. Thus it makes sense that they are more patriotic.
As to the point about the biggest protesters being white college 20 year olds I think there are a couple of points which work together to explain this.
Younger people tend to be more rebellious. Most children when they reach a certain age start to rebel in different ways against their parents and other authority figures in their life, so thus it's natural for them to start to rebel against the government if they have issues which jump out at them and they disagree with.
Also people in college tend to be more educated and thus more intelligent (sorry if i sound a little smug here). Thus they tend to see some of the errors or problems in our system of government (the drug war is one popular issue) and thus rebel or protest against it.
Also on the spoiled issue, i do partly agree, white college boys and girls tend to have grown up rather if not extremely wealthy, thus a large majority of them are spoiled and like to protest because its either fun or their "whiney" and whatever.
I think alot of these reasons along with other reasons that I fail to recognize, play together to explain why white college kids are more rebellious or tend to protest more or are less patriotic than most minorities and immigrants.
As to whether white college kids are wiser than 50 year olds. no. wisdom comes with experience. a 50 year old has more experience than a college 20 year old kid. that doesn't necesarily mean that the 50 year old is right though. You also have to consider that 50 year olds tend to be more conservative thus may have blindly grab hold of an issue and stick with it not necesarily because they know it is logicaly right, but because they are used to it and don't know anything else.
Anyway, it all balances out in the end. sometimes the old peeps are more in the right and the youngin's are just being spoiled and rebellouis and sometimes the old peeps are close minded and ignorant and the youngin's are seeing things more clearly and logicly and are more in the right.
all depends on the individual.
wow that was alot of rambling.
i need to stop coming to these forums and stick to the DJ and chill out area.

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Originally posted by montie Well most immigrants come to america thinking that this is the place of opportunity and where they can make it big. most of them are escaping from oppression or poverty and thus they think if they come here they are coming to a wonderful place where they will be "free." America has always been thought of the place where one can come for freedom. Thus it makes sense that they are more patriotic. As to the point about the biggest protesters being white college 20 year olds I think there are a couple of points which work together to explain this. Younger people tend to be more rebellious. Most children when they reach a certain age start to rebel in different ways against their parents and other authority figures in their life, so thus it's natural for them to start to rebel against the government if they have issues which jump out at them and they disagree with. Also people in college tend to be more educated and thus more intelligent (sorry if i sound a little smug here). Thus they tend to see some of the errors or problems in our system of government (the drug war is one popular issue) and thus rebel or protest against it. Also on the spoiled issue, i do partly agree, white college boys and girls tend to have grown up rather if not extremely wealthy, thus a large majority of them are spoiled and like to protest because its either fun or their "whiney" and whatever. I think alot of these reasons along with other reasons that I fail to recognize, play together to explain why white college kids are more rebellious or tend to protest more or are less patriotic than most minorities and immigrants. As to whether white college kids are wiser than 50 year olds. no. wisdom comes with experience. a 50 year old has more experience than a college 20 year old kid. that doesn't necesarily mean that the 50 year old is right though. You also have to consider that 50 year olds tend to be more conservative thus may have blindly grab hold of an issue and stick with it not necesarily because they know it is logicaly right, but because they are used to it and don't know anything else. Anyway, it all balances out in the end. sometimes the old peeps are more in the right and the youngin's are just being spoiled and rebellouis and sometimes the old peeps are close minded and ignorant and the youngin's are seeing things more clearly and logicly and are more in the right. all depends on the individual. wow that was alot of rambling. i need to stop coming to these forums and stick to the DJ and chill out area.

i know some of these issues have become over discussed, but it still feels like a good idea to communicate, although im mainly getting feedback from americans...

Montie:

I would agree with most of your arguments except for the part about people in college being more intelligent and educated. So once we leave college do we start becoming more stupid and narrowminded? There should be just as many intelligent/educated people outside of college as there are in college, actually more! For each age bracket there's going to be a percentage of the population that went to college. When you add up the number of college attendees over each age bracket that's going to far outweigh the number of people currentely in college. Thus the general population should be equally intelligent enough to see the errors of our government as college students.

Also, I'm wondering why you put free in quotes. Do you think that we really aren't "free"? Should we learn something from these immigrants that come to America or Europe and realize that the countries that we live in really are not as bad as we sometimes make them out to be?

perhaps he ment free in the sense of total freedome that includes mental, emotional, physical(sexual) ect. If we got into a dicusion on the influence that governments have both directly and indirectly i think you would see that when it all ads up u amount to nothing more than a cow in may respects. SO we are only free in the sense that we have liberty and the balance of power apears to favor both sides of the spectrum.

___________________
Todays youth have desacrated music with the popification of all generes. FOR SHAME.

MUSIC GURU - 2002.

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Originally posted by trancedfarmer Ill have to say, lately ive been hearing a lot more opposition to the Bush Administration. For those of you whose main perspective on America is our COMPLETELY-SHITTY-ASS-MEDIA, i can assure you that much of the country doesnt feel any desire to fight for this purpose. Infact, many dont even care about weapons inspections, although that number is far smaller.

some information I gathered from our shitty ass media here in the United States.

- A projected $300 billion deficit (Thank you George Bush, responcible fiscal policy at work)

- War costs estimated at $95 - 400 billion (Thats an awful lot of money to spend for oil, or to remove WMD for that matter..., note the Gulf War costed about $30 billion and most was paid for by US Allies, which this war will not be) The $95 - 400 billion does not include rebuilding costs for Iraq, if we have any money left, $30 billion was already spent just for staging grounds in Turkey.

- War results could trigger a wave of terrorism vs. the US. (Maybe George Bush could learn the concept of retaliation by invading Iraq) Maybe the US public could learn not to elect Republicans through George Bush's results.

- And get this, after massive deficits & war talk expenditures, what the hell do I keep hearing from the president. More, get this, more DAMN TAX CUTS. This guys economic results are like a bad Enron episode. If he doesn't bankrupt our country through tax cuts, it will be through war. Lovely, I want my country back now Benidict Arnold. Heck Benidict Arnold would probably yeild better results than this.

- Finally, even Alan Greenspan has doubts about continued tax cuts, citing higher gas prices as the reason for reduced consumer spending. Now Bush is threatening to remove Greenspan... the only intelligent economic advisor/chairman left, I assure you.

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Current fav albums

DNA, kick me up
Protoculture, Circadians

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Originally posted by occrider Montie: I would agree with most of your arguments except for the part about people in college being more intelligent and educated. So once we leave college do we start becoming more stupid and narrowminded? There should be just as many intelligent/educated people outside of college as there are in college, actually more! For each age bracket there's going to be a percentage of the population that went to college. When you add up the number of college attendees over each age bracket that's going to far outweigh the number of people currentely in college. Thus the general population should be equally intelligent enough to see the errors of our government as college students.

I didn't mean that people after they left college became less intelligent. I was trying to say those who are in college and college educated AS A WHOLE (not everyone) tend to be more intelligent and educated than those who did not go to college or who grew up in a place where they had limited opportunity and thus haven't been exposed to as much of the world.
I will agree that there are some people who don't go to college that are more intelligent or more educated in some way than people who did. I'm talking on the average or whole here.
As to my putting free in quotations.
Many of the people who come to america looking for freedom find themselves oppressed again when they arrive because of poverty (and sometimes also due to racism), thus they don't have as much opportunity or "freedom" in the sense of a rich white college boy or girl.