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Originally posted by KLINGKLANG77 i will be verrrrrrry surprised if this war lasts for a month- lest you all forget the last gulf war was a joke somewhat.... this next war will be a SERIOUS war.....please do not enlist for your country (america).... NO WAR NO WAY!!!

im enlisting in september/october

NEVER WILL I CHANGE MY MIND....

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Originally posted by intrinsic im enlisting in september/october

Good luck, give your sing up bonus to your family in case u dont make it back. The IRS doesnt need it.

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Originally posted by intrinsic im enlisting in september/october

my respect goes out to you

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Originally posted by tiesto14 i will take the liberty to answer on their behalf... NO THEY WONT... they will some way or another blame Bush for it...watch....they refuse to accept Hussein is a mad man with evil intentions....one way or another they will flip it around against America....

it depends. The problem is that some people in this world have the belief that "right" and "wrong" are ultimate things. This means, that the ends do not justify the means.

Let me give you an example:
Say we are back in the 'good old days', the middle ages (where we are heading right now). We -the inquisition- have just caught someone, whom we think might be plotting against us, the church. We don't like that, but we cannot proove it. So we torture him to make him confess. He confesses that he was doing something that at that point in time was against the law, hence he is killed. Now, we would not have known had we not tortured him.

By your argument, it is good to torture him, since we can only aquire information that way (allegidly).



back on topic:
-will I change my views?

NOPE

-why not?

Because the united states had to wage an ATTACK war on a country in order to acquire this. By international law (which u probably don't care about, since your views of the world are surely limited to the shores of this 'great' country) any aggressive war, like the one that is currently waged, is illegal and will be prosecuted.

ps.: and obviously, it is impossible to plant any evidence in a war, so that the war looks justified, right?

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Originally posted by tiesto14 Yoepus jus by the number of responses to your question should go and show u that these people are anti-American no matter what we do....no matter what they will find a way to say we are wrong...even if we are right... If we rolled into Iraq and found 2000 Nukes they would all say we are wrong....morons that they are.....

Not wanting Bush's war (which it is imho) has NOTHING to do with being 'anti-american'. OR, are you saying that all the americans, who do not support the war are anti american?

Why, suddenly, is having a different oppinion is equivalent to being a traitor?

hold on, I remember something from my history class. Yes, yes.. there was a similar instance in history. In Stalin's days in Russia. And in Germany when our 'good friend' (note the sarcasm) Adolf was in power. Different oppinion from the government = time to go to 're-education'.

I am sorry, but isn't there something in the constitution about 'free speech'? Isn't freedom of expression one of the greatest values of this country? Why then are the americans, and I know quite a few of these, that are against the war, labelled as anti-american (i.e. Traitors)? Are we back to McCarthyism in this country. Just by association to someone who does not agree with Bush we are enemies?

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I see your 4 Crushs and raise you 3 As The Rush Comes. - Yan from PvD's first summerstage event in '03

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Originally posted by drizzt81 it depends. The problem is that some people in this world have the belief that "right" and "wrong" are ultimate things. This means, that the ends do not justify the means. Let me give you an example: Say we are back in the 'good old days', the middle ages (where we are heading right now). We -the inquisition- have just caught someone, whom we think might be plotting against us, the church. We don't like that, but we cannot proove it. So we torture him to make him confess. He confesses that he was doing something that at that point in time was against the law, hence he is killed. Now, we would not have known had we not tortured him. By your argument, it is good to torture him, since we can only aquire information that way (allegidly).

if it stops thousands of deaths...shit torture the fuck out of him...yes...

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Originally posted by drizzt81 back on topic: -will I change my views? NOPE -why not? Because the united states had to wage an ATTACK war on a country in order to acquire this. By international law (which u probably don't care about, since your views of the world are surely limited to the shores of this 'great' country) any aggressive war, like the one that is currently waged, is illegal and will be prosecuted. ps.: and obviously, it is impossible to plant any evidence in a war, so that the war looks justified, right?

um we are not violating ANY laws...resolution 687 and 1441 gives us the authority to attack....try again....

ooohhhh now u think America is going to plant WMD to prove out point?..lol can u be more of a conspiracy theorist?....i guess we planted those Scud missiles that he supposedly doesnt have that hes firing at us RIGHT NOW...please

too lazy to read what was already said but....

i have been opposed to this war since the begining, while believing that saddam does have WMD.
If they fnd them, then my opinion will not change that this war was unjust.
there are other countries out there that have weapons which are more of a threat to us besides Iraq.
by attacking saddam we are jsut putting ourselves more at a risk of him using those weapons, we are also taking a huge risk of setting of a chain of events in the middleeast which could lead to further war with other countries and we are also deepening their hatred of us, and also increasing the risk of terrorist attack.
besides by now he's already moved most of his wmd to the terrorists or to other countries.
also a war with iraq will drain us of alot of money, get alot of iraqi's killed, get our servicement killed and put us in a situation where we have a country to rebuild. we haven't done much with afghanistan, and we are still fighting a war there.
if you check the news today we just attacked a bunch of villiages.
everyone makes a big deal when one apache is thought to go down in iraq, but no body hears about the 8 soldiers that died today in afghanistan.
we have to new countries to rebuild, and we don't have a good track record of establishing good governments in the middle east.

i could go on and on, but im lazy right now and hungry.

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Originally posted by Yoepus KLINGKLANG77 and Nadi, so what do you base your opinion of war on? Is war on Iraq ever justified? And will you change your minds if they prove this justification after/durning the war?

Justification of war is given, if there is a direct thread to the US/ another country.
Preemptive striking is NEVER justified. IFF the Iraq did ANYTHING that would _CLREARLY_ indicate that it is a thread to the US/ its neighbors (who voted against the UN resolution, mind you!), then I will be first in line to say "wipe it off the face of the planet" (exagerated).

There is nothing that will justify this war anymore at this time. If I walk up to you, and kill you, then foudn (or plant) a gun on you and say "you were trying to kill me", would my preemptive action be justified in an american courty? I don't think so. Why does President Bush not need to obey the laws like that?

I am just saying that a couple of weeks ago, I would have supported a war, when I did not know and think about it a lot. But the more I think about it, the more it makes me believe that War is incorrect.

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Originally posted by drizzt81 Justification of war is given, if there is a direct thread to the US/ another country. Preemptive striking is NEVER justified. IFF the Iraq did ANYTHING that would _CLREARLY_ indicate that it is a thread to the US/ its neighbors (who voted against the UN resolution, mind you!), then I will be first in line to say "wipe it off the face of the planet" (exagerated). There is nothing that will justify this war anymore at this time. If I walk up to you, and kill you, then foudn (or plant) a gun on you and say "you were trying to kill me", would my preemptive action be justified in an american courty? I don't think so. Why does President Bush not need to obey the laws like that? I am just saying that a couple of weeks ago, I would have supported a war, when I did not know and think about it a lot. But the more I think about it, the more it makes me believe that War is incorrect.

go read UN resolutions 687 and 1441..u dont know what ur talking about

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Originally posted by tiesto14 um we are not violating ANY laws...resolution 687 and 1441 gives us the authority to attack....try again....

um, can u please point me to that. I just skimmed 1441 and I cannot find anything that says something like "attack" "war" "strike" or similar. the end says something to the effect of 'to be determined'

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13. Recalls, in that context, that the Council has repeatedly warned Iraq that it will face serious consequences as a result of its continued violations of its obligations;

says 'serious consequences' that does not mean 'all out war'
[/edit]

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ooohhhh now u think America is going to plant WMD to prove out point?..lol can u be more of a conspiracy theorist?....i guess we planted those Scud missiles that he supposedly doesnt have that hes firing at us RIGHT NOW...please

Bush (as he is not america) has all reason to 'do' (or have done for him) so. I see a HUGE motivation for him to 'fake' such things, should they not exist. I am not saying anything about SCUD missles, but we all know that he had them as he was allowed to have them.


about the torture issue:
that is where we have a disagreement of values. I think that there are ultimate values, you don't (we had the same problem in a previous discussion about the death penalty). Obviously, I cannot make you change your values and I think I am a little to old to change my values either (plus I believe them to be correct, as do you).

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Last edited by drizzt81 on Mar-20-2003 at 23:47

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if it stops thousands of deaths...shit torture the fuck out of him...yes...

Oh, so now we're accepting torture as a valid method. Don't you realize that those few americans with statements like these are the reason terrorists attack you and also why most people in the world don't like you.

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