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LiquidX
It's All OvA!



Registered: Mar 2001
Location: In Ur Mind

Another reason could have been...

- Been the president after the golden years of President Clintons econoic boom and wide support, while Bush was heaving national lows acceptance and bunch of problems coming ahead, he tried to in a big way distract the american minds, taking over Iraq and making it a National situation, convincing majority on what he is doing its right, and show that he has as much power by doing this actions, showing off the latest US military, and say.. SEE! IM BUSH! LOOK WHAT I CAN DO! ..


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Old Post Mar-22-2003 12:20  Chile
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ascension
sAtoShiAddicT



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Australia - Perth

quote:
Originally posted by TranceGiant
After yesterday's bombardement I concluded that besides the strategic, economic and political goals this war is also about a simply pychological message: Don't fuck with US(literally)

Whoever saw those explosions, this huge devastation will probably think twice before he supports/harbors/finances terrorists.


some valid points... and some not so valid points, but an interesting read none the less


How not to fight terrorists.

By John Champneys

Terrorists fight with bombs and bullets. They frequently target civilians. They always take personal risks because they think their cause is just.

Terrorists like nothing better than governments who fight back with guns and bullets. This makes their outrages seem more respectable. The innocent get hurt, and from their ranks spring up more terrorists. The fighting back gives the terrorists publicity, which they crave.

Terrorists claim that their cause justifies their outrages. It never does. Terrorists have to have non-violent supporters who hide them and provide them with finance. Once you convince these supporters that the terrorists methods are not justified, then the terrorists become a fringe activity who can be infiltrated and destroyed from within.

Governments should never behave like terrorists. They should behave with dignity, and in accordance with law. Whilst this is necessary in accordance with morals and all relevant religions, the principle reason for is practical, it is a necessary precondition of success.

For Bush to declare war on terrorists is silly. It is CERTAIN that you cannot with bombs and bullets stop people blowing themselves up and nearby civilians with them. To do this is an outrage against creator God and the human race and is quite definitely not authorised by any mainstream religion If the communities from which the terrorists come are treated even half decently they will not support such terrorism and it will wither

. Bush’s war against terrorism is not even honest. He does not mean terrorists in general, just those who attack America. Whilst some revenge after the unprecedented and unspeakable outrage of September11th is doubtless understandable, it is threatening to go far beyond that. There is currently no evidence that the evil tyrant Saddam Hussain is planning civilian outrages on mainland America or actively supporting those who do. Whilst he may be amassing chemical biological or nuclear weapons, the idea that he plans to launch them off against America is absurd (the evidence does not exist and cannot even be credibly manufactured).The Americans doubtless can defeat Iraq and overthrow Saddam, but what then, and where will it end?

The only legitimate demand, post September 11, is for governments, whatever they did in the past, not in future to sanction training camps where suicide terrorists are trained to commit civilian outrages. Governments should be invited to say they will not and show they will not, and those that do so should be guaranteed freedom from attack. Those that continue this lamentable practice should be subject to economic pressures, and diplomatic pressures, keeping military means as a truly last resort and only after U.N. approval. Should this make American hawks impatient they should be reminded that they themselves built up the Afghan and Iraqi offenders, to fight the Russians and Iranians.

Dropping bombs on people to defeat them and make them change their mind is an invention of Hitler. It did not work then, and , please God, it never will. Civilized society can never make progress that way. Remember the story of the Sun and the Wind. The man could not be forced by the Wind to take his coat off, but the Sun got him to do so freely. Violence begets violence. Peace begets peace.

We in the West have the best system of government, democracy, and we can use it to evolve the best form of economy. We have the wealth to alleviate all the worst aspects of global poverty from whence terrorists spring. All this we can export worldwide, with the internet, marmite and coca-cola, Shakespeare and Mickey Mouse.. .We are unlikely to achieve this fully unless we demobilize, stop exporting arms and inventing new and more outrageous weapons.

America urgently needs to spend money on bread not bullets. It needs to make a success of Afghanistan before embarking on any further military adventures. If it bombs places to smithereens and then walks away it cannot expect to be loved, and it is missing the great chance it now has to be the accepted leader of the free world. In general unless it is spending at least twice as much building up as it does in destroying and preparing to destroy it isn’t responsibly fulfilling its world leadership role. And yes, this is also the way to fight terrorists.


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Old Post Mar-22-2003 14:37  Australia
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sifntj0r
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Nov 2001
Location: brisvegas

O

^ the above is a circle, and you are all running around it.


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Old Post Mar-22-2003 15:32  Australia
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ascension
sAtoShiAddicT



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Australia - Perth
Dog Running

how clever


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nothing to see here... move along please

Old Post Mar-22-2003 15:43  Australia
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tranceaholic
chus & Ceballos addict



Registered: Mar 2002
Location: behind the decks

quote:
Originally posted by sifntj0r
O

^ the above is a circle, and you are all running around it.


it took alot of searching to come with that one eeh buddy..good job.

Old Post Mar-22-2003 17:17  Egypt
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Crazy Serb
.tw1sted.motheŽ.fuŠker.



Registered: Jun 2001
Location: Sin City

I couldn't agree more with that article, except for this statement:

quote:
Originally posted by ascension
We in the West have the best system of government, democracy,...


Sure you do... with all those corrupted, selfish & greedy mother ******s running that government, you're not gonna get anywhere.


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Old Post Mar-22-2003 17:32 
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Mental Exodus
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Nov 2002
Location: Toronto, Can
Be Cool!

quote:
Originally posted by fantom
Sure you do... with all those corrupted, selfish & greedy mother ******s running that government, you're not gonna get anywhere.


What is better than Democracy?


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Old Post Mar-22-2003 19:16  Canada
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Izzy
Virtue & Vice



Registered: Apr 2001
Location: TX TA #5
Re: The true objective of the war

quote:
Originally posted by tranceaholic
why? because i dont think the main purpose of the war is to free iraq..

it may not be the main purpose but it will befinetly be a likely outcome of the war and for that reason i support it.

now as for Boutros Boutros Ghali some things stuck me about him both for good and bad....
quote:
now, the young Bush and the people surrounding him represent a group of rightwing extremists. They are fundamentalists: Christian fundamentalists.

thats pretty offensive if you ask me. i would not call the bush administration christian fundamentalists because they are not trying to convert everyone in the world to christianity but rather are pushing liberty and the religious freedoms it contains.
quote:

Is it not about power and a desire to dominate the oil resources of the Middle East?

No. It may sound surprising, but I believe they already dominate the Middle East and its oil. If it was about gaining control over Iraqi oil, they could obtain it through much cheaper means, without spending many millions of dollars on a war in Iraq.

now will you guys listen to me? i've been saying that all along.
quote:

Do you believe a war is justified if UN inspectors find weapons of mass destruction?

There are weapons of mass destruction in Israel, so why don't they start by disarming Israel? They have the atomic bomb, they never signed the Non-Proliferation Treaty, so why not start there? It is deux poids et deux mesures [two weights and two measures].

i love how everyone brings that up to skirt away from answering the question... its like me asking:
me: john, let me check if you have some bananas in your frig
john: go check bob's frig i know he has some bananas.
the point is i asked john for his, not bob's, why divert attention?
quote:

In the last 12 months we have seen the horrible things done by Israelis in the occupied territories: demolishing houses, killing children

right.... its just as one sided as he says it


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Old Post Mar-22-2003 19:23 
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Crazy Serb
.tw1sted.motheŽ.fuŠker.



Registered: Jun 2001
Location: Sin City
Re: Re: The true objective of the war

quote:
Originally posted by Izzy
thats pretty offensive if you ask me. i would not call the bush administration christian fundamentalists because they are not trying to convert everyone in the world to christianity but rather are pushing liberty and the religious freedoms it contains.


Religious freedoms? Whoa there... you're getting way ahead of yourself. I don't think that Iraqis need those "religious freedoms" that much, especially not from US. And liberty? I'd rather call that americanization, as Boutros nicely puts it.

quote:

right.... its just as one sided as he says it

Now that's a pretty ignorant comment, if you ask me. Why concentrate on Iraq ONLY? Why are they the only bad guys, and not any of the surrounding nations? It takes two to create conflict, don't you think?


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Old Post Mar-22-2003 20:23 
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Izzy
Virtue & Vice



Registered: Apr 2001
Location: TX TA #5
Re: Re: Re: The true objective of the war

quote:
Originally posted by fantom
Religious freedoms? Whoa there... you're getting way ahead of yourself. I don't think that Iraqis need those "religious freedoms" that much, especially not from US. And liberty? I'd rather call that americanization, as Boutros nicely puts it.

the iraqi's may not need religious freedoms, but it would be nice to have - dont you agree? do you not belive that the US stands up for liberty? i'd definitly call iraq's current regime the opposite - tyranny. anyways i was angry to hear Boutros call america lead by rightwing extremists - Christian fundamentalists. i dont see that to be the case.

quote:

Now that's a pretty ignorant comment, if you ask me. Why concentrate on Iraq ONLY? Why are they the only bad guys, and not any of the surrounding nations? It takes two to create conflict, don't you think?

i was refering to how he singled out israel as the problem in the conflict... how the israeli's were killing palestinian children... what about the palestinian suicide bombers who kill israeli children? two sides make a conflict as you said, singling out one as Boutros did shows bias, something i dont want to see from a UN secuirty general (even if he is an ex....)


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Old Post Mar-22-2003 21:32 
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Crazy Serb
.tw1sted.motheŽ.fuŠker.



Registered: Jun 2001
Location: Sin City
Re: Re: Re: Re: The true objective of the war

quote:
Originally posted by Izzy
i was refering to how he singled out israel as the problem in the conflict... how the israeli's were killing palestinian children... what about the palestinian suicide bombers who kill israeli children? two sides make a conflict as you said, singling out one as Boutros did shows bias, something i dont want to see from a UN secuirty general (even if he is an ex....)


I don't find it as taking one side and being biased, but actually pointing a finger on the other side too...


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Old Post Mar-22-2003 23:50 
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Endlesswave
Resident GreekCypriot.



Registered: Sep 2001
Location: Thornhill (Ontario)
Re: Re: The true objective of the war

quote:
Originally posted by Izzy
thats pretty offensive if you ask me. i would not call the bush administration christian fundamentalists because they are not trying to convert everyone in the world to christianity but rather are pushing liberty and the religious freedoms it contains.



It is the truth. Half of Bush's admin is full of Christian Fundamentalists, the other half is trying to manage the world (guide it), not tell it where to go and force change. I saw it in a documentary a couple of days ago and I even posted about it in this political forum in a thread once, I forget which one but I will look for it...it talks about the "Hawks" being the fundamentalists etc.


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Old Post Mar-23-2003 04:02  Cyprus
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