quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J TA is dead because trance is dead. It's that simple.

surely both TA and trance could be dead independently?

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by the-sixth Paul Van Dyk himself infact called 1999 trance "really cheesy shit music". That is on video

hahaha. i wonder what the paul in that video would think of the vonyc sessions

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J TA is dead because trance is dead. It's that simple. People were kicking lumps out of each other here even when the forum's traffic was booming. Even J00F's own forum gets about three posts a day now, and that's effectively a fan club. We all jumped on the promised "deep trance revival" circa 2011 and it never went anywhere. What's left to discuss? Naff psy-trance and Armin's latest monstrosity?

Jack, I really like you as a person, we've had many deep enjoyable chats about music.
Comments like this on a dedicated Trance forum are counter productive. Maybe consider heading to another place where your tastes are more aligned.

Trance is currently being reborn, but its over in the Melodic Techno and Progressive World. History is repeating itself, Laurent Garnier did the same thing creating a melodic version of Techno in 1990 that sparked a Trance scene. I was blessed and lived through that period and witness the birth of Trance.
As per history, the Trance world get to work evolving on this, making more uplifting versions, deep versions, vocals versions. Think Oliver Lieb, HOOJ Choons, Platipus days.

The Trance world has got lost for the last few years, for example I love the harder driving Prog style of Trance, but couldn't find it, so Psy became a band-aid to fill that void, until now as I'm finding more as the organic overflow from other worlds are heading our way.
I think Psy has become a band-aid for many others too from what they tell me.

Trance is such a unique versiitile genre, with so many different wings, euphoric, vocal, tech etc.
This makes an awesome musical journey in a club or festival when programmed well, we all play our part.
What I don't understand is people picking holes and telling Progressive Trance producers its not uplifting enough, when it was never intended to be uplifting, other guys do that and do it well. All this in-house fighting isn't helping, just accept some play and produce deeper others dont. They are musical tools for different reasons, no different than in the past.

quote:

Originally posted by Midlothian Oh I'm sure there's lots to discuss. But then I didn't actively jump on any "revival" circa 2011 so I can freely act like a naïve Dutch kid.

Well, lots of us did. We genuinely bought into J00F's mantra for a few years, and no doubt he did good business out of that renewed enthusiasm. After years of pessimism about new trance music on this forum, 2010-13 saw quite a lot of commitment to trying to revive it under this new, J00F-led banner. I did my bit. I went up and down the country supporting his events. I sifted agonisingly through Beatport trying to find the little gems of high quality modern trance that could be assembled into a mix. And eventually, three or four years had elapsed, and the whole thing was going nowhere. No new, young DJs were coming through. No producers were growing in traction. The sound never broke out into the wider world. You looked at everyone's tracklists and saw they'd all found the same five tunes that had come out in the last month and were halfway play-able. It was torturous. And that was probably what broke the back of TA's lingering community. We had enthusiasm and boosterism here for a while, and it didn't save the forum or the scene.

Meanwhile, out there in the rest of dance music, more melodic, hypnotic and occasionally euphoric music was slowly making a comeback. After a decade of minimal, tech house and ketamine, good quality pills were starting to flow out of your homeland, and people were more interested in melody and feel-good sounds again. The only problem was that it was all a good 10bpm slower than the stuff J00F had been pushing, it was hybridised between techno, tech house, progressive and classic trancey elements. It was the real "resurgence of trance music", and it happened totally outside the stubborn remnants of the trance community.

So, "trance" the scene is dead, except for its silly self-contained festivals and stages. Trance the vibe is alive and well elsewhere in the dance music world. Only problem is that nobody getting into it in 2018 is going to sign up to "TranceAddict.com" and expect to discuss it here. The word just carries connotation with circus acts like Armin and Above & Beyond.

___________________
Mixes:
> Maximum Elevation [Progressive House]
> DI.FM 26th Anniversary Guest Mix [Progressive House]
> Live @ Dance:Love:Hub London, 11.10.2025
> Higher Peaks [Progressive House]
> Dance:Love:Hub Afterparty (The Return) 23.11.24

Like these sets? Come see me play live at Kibosh in Manchester: https://www.instagram.com/kibosh.mcr/

How is Trance dead exactly?

-Millions of views for Uplifting and Psy Trance on Youtube.
-Many Tracks are released each month.
-Facebook fanbase for some Trance artists are 100,000+ .
-(In my country) there are many Psy trance parties with hundreds of "normies" attending, even street parties during the day in the middle of the town.


Sure, you need to go through hours of music before you end up the 10% which is interesting to you, but trance is very much alive.


TA is dying because computers are dying, most young people are on their phone now. TA's unwelcoming atmosphere is also not helping...

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Well, lots of us did. We genuinely bought into J00F's mantra for a few years, and no doubt he did good business out of that renewed enthusiasm. After years of pessimism about new trance music on this forum, 2010-13 saw quite a lot of commitment to trying to revive it under this new, J00F-led banner. I did my bit. I went up and down the country supporting his events. I sifted agonisingly through Beatport trying to find the little gems of high quality modern trance that could be assembled into a mix. And eventually, three or four years had elapsed, and the whole thing was going nowhere. No new, young DJs were coming through. No producers were growing in traction. The sound never broke out into the wider world. You looked at everyone's tracklists and saw they'd all found the same five tunes that had come out in the last month and were halfway play-able. It was torturous. And that was probably what broke the back of TA's lingering community. We had enthusiasm and boosterism here for a while, and it didn't save the forum or the scene. Meanwhile, out there in the rest of dance music, more melodic, hypnotic and occasionally euphoric music was slowly making a comeback. After a decade of minimal, tech house and ketamine, good quality pills were starting to flow out of your homeland, and people were more interested in melody and feel-good sounds again. The only problem was that it was all a good 10bpm slower than the stuff J00F had been pushing, it was hybridised between techno, tech house, progressive and classic trancey elements. It was the real "resurgence of trance music", and it happened totally outside the stubborn remnants of the trance community. So, "trance" the scene is dead, except for its silly self-contained festivals and stages. Trance the vibe is alive and well elsewhere in the dance music world. Only problem is that nobody getting into it in 2018 is going to sign up to "TranceAddict.com" and expect to discuss it here. The word just carries connotation with circus acts like Armin and Above & Beyond.

You also need to take into consideration the explosion of 'EDM' festivals over the past decade, this effected all genres and clubs. It was a tuff time watching clubs either close or struggle. The direct repercussions of this we are seeing today as the next generation entrance to the electronic scene is no longer EDM festivals but underground clubs, hence the mass movement we're seeing.
I see it first hand, the amount of small underground clubs and new promoters is incredible, I don't recall seeing such a movement for a long time. We all had to ride through the EDM storm, it lasted much longer than we expected.
Whats wrong with me believing in what I love? I lived through a few of the commercial fads in my 30 year career, and seen the change happen. I see history repeating itself. If you don't then you lose out.

quote:

Originally posted by John 00 Fleming Armin isn’t responsible for fixing the scene, we all are. But it can’t be done by armchair forum police puling people down. I’ve been so close to leaving Trance many times because of this, it's a horrible eviroment especially here and why no DJs come here anymore and its slowly becoming a ghost town.

No disrespect, but most of us really don't care much about the scene one way or the other, much less to the extent that we feel compelled to fix it, or even see it improve on its own. Most of us have long since moved on to other sounds. Yeah, every now and then a thread like this will pop up where we discuss the state of trance, and sure, we'll trade very general, semi-informed impressions as to how dismal it is, but that's not to say we're actively keeping tabs on what's trending. You made mention of the topics on this board, and as you can see it's a pretty diverse mix; we don't just sit around and lamenting the death of trance and pining for a return to its glory days.

The simple fact is I (and many others) are perfectly at peace with how trashy trance has become, if for no other reason than the fact that things change. And that's fine. I don't feel the need to fix everything that's broken. There's just way too much good music out there for that to bother me.

quote:

Originally posted by John 00 Fleming There's a rise in forums popularity again due to social media being full of trolls. If you want good specialist information, head to a dedicated forum where you get informative help and advice.

I have a hard time believing that people disillusioned with social media are seeking refuge in something as clunky as these dusty old discussion forums. There are indeed some renown forums that will always remain indelible mainstays of their focus, like the Gearslutz or the BodyBuilding forums. But those boards have professional ties and are regularly used for actual business purposes. That's why you can find an engineer who helped design that synth you bought troubleshoot on Gearslutz, or supplement reps to answer your questions over on the BodyBuilding boards.

But something like TA? It's just an antiquated way for people to come together and shoot the breeze on stuff that interests them, and Reddit and Google have to really come up short before you find yourself logging onto a vBulletin.

___________________
He traded sands for skins, skins for gold, gold for life. In the end, he traded life for sand. Afari, Tales

quote:

Originally posted by John 00 Fleming Jack, I really like you as a person, we've had many deep enjoyable chats about music. Comments like this on a dedicated Trance forum are counter productive. Maybe consider heading to another place where your tastes are more aligned.

John, I don't know if you recall me saying to you five years ago that I thought you should drop the word "trance" and move away from that scene, because I thought it was a dead end. I think we wouldn't need to have this discussion now if that had happened, and I caught a trace of that sentiment in this recent Facebook post of yours:

quote:

Here's a thought for you, some of the greatest Trance classics such as Energy 52 'Cafe del mar' that shaped the genre, if released today would be classed as Progressive House.

___________________
Mixes:
> Maximum Elevation [Progressive House]
> DI.FM 26th Anniversary Guest Mix [Progressive House]
> Live @ Dance:Love:Hub London, 11.10.2025
> Higher Peaks [Progressive House]
> Dance:Love:Hub Afterparty (The Return) 23.11.24

Like these sets? Come see me play live at Kibosh in Manchester: https://www.instagram.com/kibosh.mcr/

Unless you are into generic trance and progressive this music died over 12-13 years ago.
The polished and clean sound took over and the raw quality disappeared.
I find perhaps 20 good trance tunes every year or so, almost always from the same producers.
I dont like what JOOF and Airwave plays, their own productions sound SO much better then the rest of the music they play from other producers.

The Dark Matter release on JOOF recently is pretty damn good tho, quality stuff.

Trance should learn alot from the GOA scene where the oldschool sound is still primary.

___________________
http://www.lastfm.se/user/trancedan...stfmLiveJournal

Last edited by trancedanne on Mar-01-2018 at 16:19

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J drop the word "trance"

If I may, SYSTEM-J, would you use a specific, different label to describe the style of records he plays currently?

Discussion's not getting easier - to me at least - when some people use "trance" very narrowly (like trancedanne immediately above, if I understand correctly), but others might apply it more widely...

I wouldn't use one word, because John variously plays progressive, techno, trance and psy. But he always talked extensively about "trance" - the resurgence of trance, deep trance, keeping trance alive, etc. His radio show is Global Trance Grooves. And he has largely kept himself on the trance and psy circuits. I can understand why, because this is where his fanbase is and also where he has built up his network of contacts. There will always be work for him there, and his career is still flying on an individual level. But there was never any real need to hang on to the T-word, because it has bad connotations in the modern clubbing scene, and it also kept him trapped in a bookings limbo where he was only ever getting to play alongside people with a different sound - either the boshing trance crew, or the psy "band-aid" sound, as he himself dubs it.

What could have happened is that he ditched that tag, shifted his sound slightly away from the higher tempo and more psychedelic stuff, and aligned himself more closely with the "progressive" scene. He doesn't seem to play with the likes of Hernan Cattaneo, Henry Saiz or Nick Warren very often, except perhaps at big festivals, and yet that circuit is booming right now, and providing breakout names. You can listen to sets by some of the trendiest DJs around - Solomun, Patrice Baumel, DJ Tennis - and they're playing tracks by Cid Inc, Guy J, Guy Mantzur, etc. "Progressive" was itself a dirty word for several years, but now it's back in favour even with the big underground names.

None of which is to say he could only play "progressive". A lot of the big names in that scene will play techno, tech house, deep house, even cosmic disco at times. And equally, there are lot of Drumcode-style techno DJs who are now mixing in trancey tunes, and even pitched-down trance classics. J00F was playing up to 50% techno in his sets when I last saw him. He could have gone in that direction without really changing his sound very far at all. Whichever way he went, there would have been the opportunity to inject some of the "J00F sound" into these scenes, without being left an isolated musical island.

The key here is not about finding some genre label which surgically defines his sound. It's more about branding and connotations. John made it his mission to brand himself as the face of "deep trance". Like I said, it worked very well for him, and he soaked up a lot of frustrated trance fans. But the constant "deep trance revival" talk started to ring hollow years ago, and looking at the way the picture has shifted over the last few years, I can't help but feel he backed the wrong horse.

___________________
Mixes:
> Maximum Elevation [Progressive House]
> DI.FM 26th Anniversary Guest Mix [Progressive House]
> Live @ Dance:Love:Hub London, 11.10.2025
> Higher Peaks [Progressive House]
> Dance:Love:Hub Afterparty (The Return) 23.11.24

Like these sets? Come see me play live at Kibosh in Manchester: https://www.instagram.com/kibosh.mcr/

Last edited by SYSTEM-J on Mar-01-2018 at 17:06

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN hahaha. i wonder what the paul in that video would think of the vonyc sessions

I think this version of the same video sums things out pretty well:

Last edited by Kuhis on Mar-01-2018 at 19:18

quote:

Originally posted by John 00 Fleming Apologies DJ Rann (I like how auto correct turns this to DJ Rant) , we must be very close friends that speak every week as you are talking on my behalf, but I don’t recall ever speaking to you once? Let me refresh your memory of when I was resident at the legendary Zap club in Brighton for 8 years (1500 capacity) with Techno legends Dave Clarke and Eric Powell. At the same time resident at Sterns in Sussex (3000 capacity) and The Manor in Bournemouth (2500 capacity). In fact I held a handful of residencies at the same time, Bagley’s films studios every Friday in London (4000 capacity), Sunny side up at SW1 London (1800 Capacity), World dance club Angel London (1000), Colosseum London (2500), when signed to React records was resident weekly at their Wildlife nights each week at the legendary Heaven London (2500), then every other weekend at Trade Turnmills, London (1800 Capacity), Return to the source, Peach, Camden Palace and the list is endless. I don’t ever recall playing at dingy squat parties in London, because I didn’t have time. That was probably due to my career expanding when the legendary Golden club made me resident in the Midlands, the same promoter ran Cream in Liverpool, so I was there once a month. Same story at Gatecrasher. Oh lets not forget my long residency at Gods Kitchen, I also compiled and mixed all their mix compilations, but never put my name to them. International was same story, resident for Spundae at 1015 San Francisco and LA (club now called Avalon), and every month at Government Toronto (9,000 capacity). The list goes on. That was probably something to do with me selling over 10 million mix compilations? Yes I made this tone sarcastic, only to highlight that most of you here are second guessing whats going on and creating the now famous term fake news. Instead of contributing and rebuilding the Trance scene, you are contributing to the demise of the genre by being keyboard warriors and policing this forum and pointing the finger of blame. I personally know a handful of legendary producers that have given up due to forums like this because they couldn’t handle all the fake stuff going on. So there’s your contribution to the scene right there. Somehow I’ve learned to hardened up to it. Armin isn’t responsible for fixing the scene, we all are. But it can’t be done by armchair forum police puling people down. I’ve been so close to leaving Trance many times because of this, it's a horrible eviroment especially here and why no DJs come here anymore and its slowly becoming a ghost town. Trance is currently very healthy and growing in size, theres a massive underground scene thriving you just need to find it, I’ve been investing a lot of time meetings with Beatport, DJ mag, festival promoters, producers and they all identify this too and are looking to support it. If you spent time researching, instead of being lost in your own bubble here, you’ll all find it and contribute and enjoying. But your negativity’s has created this lonely ghost town, a quick read through topics only highlights none of you see what we are seeing, hence why you are disconnected with reality…just like DJ Rann was with my history. Finally for the record. I’ve been very good friends with Armin for well over 20 years. Its not suddenly a new thing. Same story with many other DJs from various genres.

John, unlike some others on here I've always had a firm respect for you - I don't have the same opinion as say Jack who thinks you've been banging on out about the resurgence of trance for the last 10 years like a broken record for self serving purposes, nor made claims that you just get to a club and just "bang it out"

Frankly speaking, I don't listen to a huge amount of trance these days becuase it's utter shit compared to what I experienced growing up in London in the mid 90's where you were playing smaller venues. So you'll have to excuse me if I have a little reservations about people like Armin, that I saw play quite brilliant music music in 1997 compared the to utter dross he churns out now for financial gain.

I get it. You have to stand up for him becuase you're leveraged now, I understand how both the industry and PR works -I worked my way up from selling kit to yuo and your mates at Turnkey then working with studios such as Air Studios and Abbey Road to work a very well known composer here in LA, so despite your childish digs (which frankly should be beneath you for what you've achieved) I'm not some armchair pundit spending all my time on TA "trying to bring people down"

I'll also say that guys who quit the industry becuase they didn't like what was said on here or other forums, it's probably just as well they did a got a nice cubicle job somewhere, becuase any industry that involved the capitalization of art, especially music, has a ton of detractors, are hard slog to success and requires an incredibly thick skin. Sounds harsh but the poor diddums didn't have a chance in the first place.

These days I work with a lot of A list/celeb talent and you can't even imagine the shit that gets put out there for no reason other than someone's derange personal hate, and if again, if someone can't handle a little criticism - warranted or unwarranted - they shouldn't be attempting to be an artist

Also, it's great to hear you CV (however unnecessary it was to post it) but are you actually suggesting with a straight face that you went from nothing, to packing out Avalon LA (just up the road from where I love now) without playing smaller clubs?

Bear in mind I might still have the flyers where you're playing alongside such notables as Skol and Roosta (remember them?).

Raves at Bagleys was one of the first events I ever went to and I used to live on Camden High street so saw you play at Sunnyside (and probably peach too) more times that I can remember, but that was later. I'm talking about the clubs you played circa 1995/1996 and those weren't the zap, cream or godskitchen.

I think you missed the point here though; I'm saying I remember you playing small venues where DJ names weren't a big pull (the event itself was) so you should realize that my post was actually response to jacks, that he was saying you had said that venues like Turnmills were unmarked DJ booths where the DJ didn't get any attention.... which from my 50 or so memories of the Gallery or Trade was far from the truth, especially so as if you were already playing the Newman family venue, you'd already had a serious position of stature and it wasn't some random playing in a "hidden booth" etc.

You'll note I didn't make any comments on what you;re actually playing these days - that was all other people, my observation is that there's very few people who stuck to a deeper sound such as yourself and due to that you inherited a unique position in this day and sure.

Sure Trance might be growing but there's not a single regular trance night here in LA right now and SF's last just closed. Things are cyclical, things come and go, but when I moved here in 2007 I had at least 3 or 4 trance/prog nights at big clubs to choose from (Avalon, Vanuagurd, Ivar, etc) and now there's none. It might be growing elsewhere, maybe Europe, but it's no so much here in the USA and believe me, I've looked.

So you're right, I may be a little disconnected becuase the scene you say is growing is actually receding in my locale, but that means we have different perspectives.

To be honest, the biggest thing you can do for the scene is what you;re doing now;

speaking directly to the people that are involved and have been invested. I mean shit, we're on a VB forum that hasn't changed in 15 years (in spite of everything social media has thrown at the internet) so it's not too much of a stretch to say we're the hardcore enthusiasts.

Some of the worst things I see with this scene is that high profile DJ's only ever engage when their names are sullied, rather than contributing positively in other time to the conversation.

I know for a fact, dozens of "big names" lurk on TA but only come out of the woodwork to correct something negative. That's shitty way to run a business or build a reputation, so I hope you stick around a little to encourage the scene a bit more. It needs it.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN you should realize that my post was actually response to jacks, that he was saying you had said that venues like Turnmills were unmarked DJ booths where the DJ didn't get any attention....

Huh? Where the fuck did I say anything even remotely resembling that?

___________________
Mixes:
> Maximum Elevation [Progressive House]
> DI.FM 26th Anniversary Guest Mix [Progressive House]
> Live @ Dance:Love:Hub London, 11.10.2025
> Higher Peaks [Progressive House]
> Dance:Love:Hub Afterparty (The Return) 23.11.24

Like these sets? Come see me play live at Kibosh in Manchester: https://www.instagram.com/kibosh.mcr/

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Huh? Where the fuck did I say anything even remotely resembling that?

My bad, it was actually Trance-M who posted that specific reference. I take it back.

I stand by all the other shit you bashed him about though

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J I'm not sure J00F is particularly "sincere". So much of what he says is exaggerated self-aggrandisement prefixed with proclamations that he's one of the most humble people in the industry. He's done very well for himself by marketing himself as the face of "deep" trance music, when in reality I've seen him at least ten times in a club and never heard him do anything but bang it out. It's only the naivety and musical ignorance of modern trance crowds that allows him to sell himself as "deep".

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J We all jumped on the promised "deep trance revival" circa 2011 and it never went anywhere. What's left to discuss? Naff psy-trance and Armin's latest monstrosity?

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J I wouldn't use one word, because John variously plays progressive, techno, trance and psy. But he always talked extensively about "trance" - the resurgence of trance, deep trance, keeping trance alive, etc. His radio show is Global Trance Grooves. And he has largely kept himself on the trance and psy circuits. I can understand why, because this is where his fanbase is and also where he has built up his network of contacts. There will always be work for him there, and his career is still flying on an individual level. But there was never any real need to hang on to the T-word, because it has bad connotations in the modern clubbing scene, and it also kept him trapped in a bookings limbo where he was only ever getting to play alongside people with a different sound - either the boshing trance crew, or the psy "band-aid" sound, as he himself dubs it. What could have happened is that he ditched that tag, shifted his sound slightly away from the higher tempo and more psychedelic stuff, and aligned himself more closely with the "progressive" scene. He doesn't seem to play with the likes of Hernan Cattaneo, Henry Saiz or Nick Warren very often, except perhaps at big festivals, and yet that circuit is booming right now, and providing breakout names. You can listen to sets by some of the trendiest DJs around - Solomun, Patrice Baumel, DJ Tennis - and they're playing tracks by Cid Inc, Guy J, Guy Mantzur, etc. "Progressive" was itself a dirty word for several years, but now it's back in favour even with the big underground names. None of which is to say he could only play "progressive". A lot of the big names in that scene will play techno, tech house, deep house, even cosmic disco at times. And equally, there are lot of Drumcode-style techno DJs who are now mixing in trancey tunes, and even pitched-down trance classics. J00F was playing up to 50% techno in his sets when I last saw him. He could have gone in that direction without really changing his sound very far at all. Whichever way he went, there would have been the opportunity to inject some of the "J00F sound" into these scenes, without being left an isolated musical island. The key here is not about finding some genre label which surgically defines his sound. It's more about branding and connotations. John made it his mission to brand himself as the face of "deep trance". Like I said, it worked very well for him, and he soaked up a lot of frustrated trance fans. But the constant "deep trance revival" talk started to ring hollow years ago, and looking at the way the picture has shifted over the last few years, I can't help but feel he backed the wrong horse.

I know people reading this are excepting a battle between myself and Jack, but we’ve historically had some long epic chats and debates that always ended with a handshake, thats what I like about you.

I get what you are saying, but you’re not fully seeing what I’m doing and just focusing on maybe some moments in the past. My whole career I’ve sat in the middle of these two worlds, I play and work with ‘Progressive/Techno’ clubs and promoters along with the Trance world. I don’t want to be fully party of that Progressive world because I enjoy playing slightly harder and having fun moments now and then, and I also do the same in the Psy world too but play Progressive sets. I guess I’m unique as I can’t think of many other DJ’s that do this, nor get accepted by these other worlds.

I’m in the most happy place at the moment, I’m packed with high quality gigs, I’ve no need to follow the others nor adapt my sound, I just do my on thing and its working. I accept the last decade has been challenging musically not only for me, but others similar, the Progressive scene went very minimal and slow, the Trance scene commercial and Psy scene one dimensional. Many forget the Psy scene used to offer an awesome take on Progressive, think Spiral Trax, Hernan Cattaneo used to release and support here.
Finding music for that middle ground became extremely difficult, many of my favourite labels and producers disappeared and gave up, until recently when theres been a huge musical shift that seems to be heading to this one central point. Progressive House and Techno are getting more musical, the Psy scene are making huge changes supporting the Progressive sound again.
Finding music is a pleasure now, one moment I’m frustrated and heading to my band-aid, now I’ve got far too much amazing music that I can’t fit in a set.

Its why I’m super happy along with many others that see some change coming (Promoters, media, labels etc). This is what we do behind the scenes, at music conferences etc, communicate. Maybe why I feel so positive. If you or anyone else wants to translate my passion and love and encouragement for the music as preaching, you’re wrong. I’ve ridden through these changes in the past and that experience has taught me change does eventually come.

I’ve dedicated 28 years of my career to Trance music, this will always be in my heart. I like the Trance world, I can have more fun as a DJ here, I guess thats why I’ll always lean slightly more towards it. Agreed the shopfront of the genre isn’t ideal at the moment, but as I say to everyone dig deeper you’ll find some gems.

We’ve all had different introductions to Trance music through the decades, I lived through the birth, off the back of Techno so this will be my take on things. Others in 2000’s when it was more uplifting, that will be their take on things, and todays generation see it as vocal drops. Here lays the confusion.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN John, unlike some others on here I've always had a firm respect for you - I don't have the same opinion as say Jack who thinks you've been banging on out about the resurgence of trance for the last 10 years like a broken record for self serving purposes, nor made claims that you just get to a club and just "bang it out" Frankly speaking, I don't listen to a huge amount of trance these days becuase it's utter shit compared to what I experienced growing up in London in the mid 90's where you were playing smaller venues. So you'll have to excuse me if I have a little reservations about people like Armin, that I saw play quite brilliant music music in 1997 compared the to utter dross he churns out now for financial gain. I get it. You have to stand up for him becuase you're leveraged now, I understand how both the industry and PR works -I worked my way up from selling kit to yuo and your mates at Turnkey then working with studios such as Air Studios and Abbey Road to work a very well known composer here in LA, so despite your childish digs (which frankly should be beneath you for what you've achieved) I'm not some armchair pundit spending all my time on TA "trying to bring people down" I'll also say that guys who quit the industry becuase they didn't like what was said on here or other forums, it's probably just as well they did a got a nice cubicle job somewhere, becuase any industry that involved the capitalization of art, especially music, has a ton of detractors, are hard slog to success and requires an incredibly thick skin. Sounds harsh but the poor diddums didn't have a chance in the first place. These days I work with a lot of A list/celeb talent and you can't even imagine the shit that gets put out there for no reason other than someone's derange personal hate, and if again, if someone can't handle a little criticism - warranted or unwarranted - they shouldn't be attempting to be an artist Also, it's great to hear you CV (however unnecessary it was to post it) but are you actually suggesting with a straight face that you went from nothing, to packing out Avalon LA (just up the road from where I love now) without playing smaller clubs? Bear in mind I might still have the flyers where you're playing alongside such notables as Skol and Roosta (remember them?). Raves at Bagleys was one of the first events I ever went to and I used to live on Camden High street so saw you play at Sunnyside (and probably peach too) more times that I can remember, but that was later. I'm talking about the clubs you played circa 1995/1996 and those weren't the zap, cream or godskitchen. I think you missed the point here though; I'm saying I remember you playing small venues where DJ names weren't a big pull (the event itself was) so you should realize that my post was actually response to jacks, that he was saying you had said that venues like Turnmills were unmarked DJ booths where the DJ didn't get any attention.... which from my 50 or so memories of the Gallery or Trade was far from the truth, especially so as if you were already playing the Newman family venue, you'd already had a serious position of stature and it wasn't some random playing in a "hidden booth" etc. You'll note I didn't make any comments on what you;re actually playing these days - that was all other people, my observation is that there's very few people who stuck to a deeper sound such as yourself and due to that you inherited a unique position in this day and sure. Sure Trance might be growing but there's not a single regular trance night here in LA right now and SF's last just closed. Things are cyclical, things come and go, but when I moved here in 2007 I had at least 3 or 4 trance/prog nights at big clubs to choose from (Avalon, Vanuagurd, Ivar, etc) and now there's none. It might be growing elsewhere, maybe Europe, but it's no so much here in the USA and believe me, I've looked. So you're right, I may be a little disconnected becuase the scene you say is growing is actually receding in my locale, but that means we have different perspectives. To be honest, the biggest thing you can do for the scene is what you;re doing now; speaking directly to the people that are involved and have been invested. I mean shit, we're on a VB forum that hasn't changed in 15 years (in spite of everything social media has thrown at the internet) so it's not too much of a stretch to say we're the hardcore enthusiasts. Some of the worst things I see with this scene is that high profile DJ's only ever engage when their names are sullied, rather than contributing positively in other time to the conversation. I know for a fact, dozens of "big names" lurk on TA but only come out of the woodwork to correct something negative. That's shitty way to run a business or build a reputation, so I hope you stick around a little to encourage the scene a bit more. It needs it.

Thats the danger of forum, a quick read, moment of passion and hit reply. A moment of weakness, but as you pointed out it happened to you too. No malice intended, and as you're so close to Avalon you got no excuse to come along when I'm there next month!

Also answer you your question, I'm one lucky DJ, at the age of 15 landed a residency at Sterns in Sussex UK, 3000 capacity. BUT I also love playing small tiny venues too, actively make this happen.

quote:

Originally posted by John 00 Fleming I don’t want to be fully party of that Progressive world because I enjoy playing slightly harder and having fun moments now and then

Well that's what I was referring to when I talked about you "banging it out". I've seen you DJ many times where you get the glint in your eye, and you just unleash hell on the dancefloor. In my mind you would be better labelling yourself the master of "dark trance" rather than "deep trance". What I always associate with John 00 Fleming is that dark and evil sound on the dancefloor that makes you twist your face into ugly shapes of pleasure.

I agree you are unique, and that's something not a lot of DJs can claim. You pull together several different genres into an extremely distinctive musical palette that pretty much stands outside of any pigeon-holed scene or DJ circuit. However, that's the rub - you are an outlier. The trance scene will continue going in one direction, while the more melodic/progressive scene will go in another, and you will always be somewhere in the middle. I don't think there's anything wrong with calling trance "dead" and saying the revival will never happen.

Being selfish, I still wish you'd have come closer to the progressive scene. That's where my heart has always been, and I'm imagining an alternate timeline where you didn't need to talk up the forlorn hopes of trance, and we wouldn't have to get frustrated about a revolution that never arrived.

Anyway, thank you for being extremely gracious towards me, despite me saying some less-than-gracious things in this thread.

___________________
Mixes:
> Maximum Elevation [Progressive House]
> DI.FM 26th Anniversary Guest Mix [Progressive House]
> Live @ Dance:Love:Hub London, 11.10.2025
> Higher Peaks [Progressive House]
> Dance:Love:Hub Afterparty (The Return) 23.11.24

Like these sets? Come see me play live at Kibosh in Manchester: https://www.instagram.com/kibosh.mcr/

quote:

Originally posted by Kuhis I think this version of the same video sums things out pretty well:

Mad to think all the time he was playing mind blowing sets in 1999 he was thinking to himself this is really cheesy shit music

___________________
1999 Mix series

Rare Vinyls spinning on video If you like that sort of thing

quote:

Originally posted by the-sixth What I find so funny about this is that anyone from early 90s wouldnt consider 1999 "trance" to be really trance at all. It's just going round in circles with labels. Paul Van Dyk himself infact called 1999 trance "really cheesy shit music". That is on video

I see ur pvd and i raise u 1 armen

quote:

Originally posted by Viber I see ur pvd and i raise u 1 armen

I was waiting for that one.

___________________

Longest (classic) Trance playlist on YouTube (5000 tracks released up to and including 1997), click here

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN Sure Trance might be growing but there's not a single regular trance night here in LA right now and SF's last just closed. Things are cyclical, things come and go, but when I moved here in 2007 I had at least 3 or 4 trance/prog nights at big clubs to choose from (Avalon, Vanuagurd, Ivar, etc) and now there's none. It might be growing elsewhere, maybe Europe, but it's no so much here in the USA and believe me, I've looked. speaking directly to the people that are involved and have been invested. I mean shit, we're on a VB forum that hasn't changed in 15 years (in spite of everything social media has thrown at the internet) so it's not too much of a stretch to say we're the hardcore enthusiasts. Some of the worst things I see with this scene is that high profile DJ's only ever engage when their names are sullied, rather than contributing positively in other time to the conversation.

Trance has been in murky waters for YEARS because let's face it, Trance has never been "sexy" and as the nightclub bottle service culture heightened we are faced with few venues where it is actually a welcome sound.

Plenty of people enjoy listening to Trance, though for some reason it has always been hard to pull those same people into events. The feel-good Trance wave that existed in late 90's/early 2000's was also riding the crescendo of the optimism/good feeling that came with the new millennium / internet .com boom (and subsequent bust). Now, in 2018, the near limitless ways to get access at the music you love means you don't have to seek it out in a club - not everyone is into clubs -- and, as evidenced by dating app popularity, you don't need to go out and club to meet people anymore.

quote:

Originally posted by John 00 Fleming Armin isn’t responsible for fixing the scene, we all are. But it can’t be done by armchair forum police puling people down. I’ve been so close to leaving Trance many times because of this, it's a horrible eviroment especially here and why no DJs come here anymore and its slowly becoming a ghost town. Trance is currently very healthy and growing in size, theres a massive underground scene thriving you just need to find it, I’ve been investing a lot of time meetings with Beatport, DJ mag, festival promoters, producers and they all identify this too and are looking to support it. If you spent time researching, instead of being lost in your own bubble here, you’ll all find it and contribute and enjoying. But your negativity’s has created this lonely ghost town, a quick read through topics only highlights none of you see what we are seeing, hence why you are disconnected with reality…just like DJ Rann was with my history. I see it first hand, the amount of small underground clubs and new promoters is incredible, I don't recall seeing such a movement for a long time. We all had to ride through the EDM storm, it lasted much longer than we expected.

Musically, there is also the challenge for Trance talent to stand out as having a unique sound while not falling into the EDM trap and still calling themselves Trance artists. If you look at Techno you'll see they didn't have the same sort of identity crisis ...but that's a different topic.

I've always been a fan of Armin's though I'll admit over the last few years I have cringed when he would ask people at big festivals if they were in a State of Trance and then proceeded to unleash EDM noise. I would think to myself, "Fuck, if Armin doesn't feel it safe to play Trance when playing a big festival stage then who else is going to take that risk?!" Also, what happens when Armin retires, who is left to fill those big shoes? ASOT in 2018 may not be the early ASOT most of us fell in love with but he is still doing a lot for Trance on a global level.

"I owe a lot to Canada, I owe a lot to the Canadian crowd because it was one of the first countries to really embrace Trance music. Actually, one of the most important web sites back in the days was TranceAddict which is based out of Toronto and one of the really influential clubs for a really long time was the Guvernment based out of Toronto. So, this was always kind of the "capital" of Trance a little bit for a very long time... and still is there is still a lot of love for Trance music."
-Armin 2014

Source: http://youtu.be/LKtGvd6cvRE?t=41s

Regarding the current state of TA

The forum was basically on fire for almost a decade - annually having 1+ million posts and no shortage of people who would rush on here after an event to share their views/party experiences. As FB rose the forum declined, but I'm to blame as well, as this place is (still) not mobile friendly. I could've slowed the exodus a bit, definitely, but as smartphone/social media adoption has shown, people are barely sharing complete sentences (let alone paragraphs) of what their night out entailed. A like/share or some hearts are basically all you get now. A retweet/like on Instagram/snap story or share of a Youtube vid. I look to Reddit as an outlier because as simple as it is, it somehow became the place for all the old school forum lovers to post, on whatever topic, after their own favourite message boards died out.

Regarding what John has said about the negative nature of TA - it seems more that way now because you don't have the wide-eyed newbies coming in as often proclaiming their love of the genre. It has always been like this though, I could pull up threads from 2002 where the regulars were mean to newcomers. That is the kind of thing that happens on any forum as it grows, even if I hate it because it goes against the positive nature of the Trance 'scene' and parties/events.

When I started this place (18+ years ago) I never expected it to get so popular and it freaked me out a bit when it did. When I started it was easy - I could basically do what I wanted and I didn't have a bunch of people suggesting what I 'should' do or change. I also wasn't ready for the minefield that was managing to afford the bandwidth/web hosting, dealing with the massive MP3 legalities, and also balancing how to moderate a forum and what 'rules' to enforce or not enforce. Hindsight is 20/20 and I would've changed some things but I think I did ok

Incoming virtual dick wag - I would say that my proudest thing about TA is that I never censored people or their opinions or sold out to any artist or label. You RARELY ever see the kind of honesty that is laid out bare here in posts on Facebook or other social media platforms. You've always been free to post your thoughts here ...and for many years I've had to also hear slack from DJs that hated some of the massively derailed threads on here. At the same time, it has also been sad when some people took things way too far and you can read the hate oozing from their posts trying to tear down an artist. That shit isn't motivating for anyone! Moreover, DJs/producers are usually used to positive reviews/interactions at events from their fans and then all it takes is 1 negative post on TA (or any social media) to bring your mood down. I get it. However, to keep things real you NEED to allow a platform for those people to share their opinions, and if they're stupid/inaccurate then it also leaves a platform for those same things to be corrected/addressed (by the artist or other fans) instead of swept under the rug. I don't know what the solution is but it's obvious nobody has a simple answer... fb/twitter/instagram and social media trolling/bullying is not going to disappear and it is not easy to control either. So many places removed their forums (or comment sections) in the past five years - IMDB, big news sites, etc. It is hard to police.

So, where do we go from here? I'm open to ideas.

I guess I could make the forums mobile friendly to start...

It may not fix anything but at least it'll make it easier to battle the trolls.

___________________

"In a world of illusion you only see what you feel"

quote:

Originally posted by Viber I see ur pvd and i raise u 1 armen

Oh wow I fold. Well played never saw that before

___________________
1999 Mix series

Rare Vinyls spinning on video If you like that sort of thing

Before there is any movement forward, I think that, metaphysically, everyone needs to figure out what they mean by 'Trance' and, more importantly, why they care so much about that word.

quote:

Originally posted by Lews Before there is any movement forward, I think that, metaphysically, everyone needs to figure out what they mean by 'Trance' and, more importantly, why they care so much about that word.

Don't open pandora's box!

___________________
Help me ID these sets:
Sasha - Live @ Logic, Santa Monica, CA 12-21-97 - Groove 103.1 FM
John Digweed - Live @ Axis, Boston 28-07-1997



Old & New Electronic Music Channel
Soundcloud Mixes

quote:

Originally posted by Lews Before there is any movement forward, I think that, metaphysically, everyone needs to figure out what they mean by 'Trance' and, more importantly, why they care so much about that word.

Have to agree with this. It's the crux of the entire discussion.

I'd hate to see TA 2.0 fuck up the desktop platforms (I fucking hate typing long things on my phone) but a mobile friendly version would at least be good.

I'll also say that i don't think TA is quite as dead as people keep saying.

I posted in this thread yesterday, and 24 hours later, i find it buried towards the bottom of the MD. That's not really dead by any stretch and given the comparative health of forums in general, that's positively bustling.

I suppose my 2c for Swampah is make a mobile version but don't fuck up the desktop version. We still need the longer, more thoughtful, more articulated conversations that the full screen version provides, but it might be nice to at least be able to post from mobile.

What i wouldn't like is if this skewed entirely to mobile, because what you get then is the equivalent of "likes" or retweets; one sentence wonders that plague platform reddit like, well, the plague. Places where people just chime in one fleeting though and hope it gain enough karma to be on top. Please don't let this place devolve to that ADHD self appreciative mess for the semi coherent.

quote:

Originally posted by John 00 Fleming Thats the danger of forum, a quick read, moment of passion and hit reply. A moment of weakness, but as you pointed out it happened to you too. No malice intended, and as you're so close to Avalon you got no excuse to come along when I'm there next month! Also answer you your question, I'm one lucky DJ, at the age of 15 landed a residency at Sterns in Sussex UK, 3000 capacity. BUT I also love playing small tiny venues too, actively make this happen.

I'll wholehearted agree; it's dangerous to skim and appropriate an answer without full consideration.

My Avalon days are a bit behind me tbh but I was never really a fan of that place (although it does resemble the Camden Palace a bit in layout!). Avalon always had a problem with what we call out here washers and puddles. I ended up having better times in the downstairs to some McProg and tech House. I still may pop out if I can convince the missus too. I'd much prefer to see you in a smaller venue, so let me know if you end up at any infamous LA afterhours

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN Have to agree with this. It's the crux of the entire discussion. I'd hate to see TA 2.0 fuck up the desktop platforms (I fucking hate typing long things on my phone) but a mobile friendly version would at least be good. I'll also say that i don't think TA is quite as dead as people keep saying. I posted in this thread yesterday, and 24 hours later, i find it buried towards the bottom of the MD. That's not really dead by any stretch and given the comparative health of forums in general, that's positively bustling. I suppose my 2c for Swampah is make a mobile version but don't fuck up the desktop version. We still need the longer, more thoughtful, more articulated conversations that the full screen version provides, but it might be nice to at least be able to post from mobile. What i wouldn't like is if this skewed entirely to mobile, because what you get then is the equivalent of "likes" or retweets; one sentence wonders that plague platform reddit like, well, the plague. Places where people just chime in one fleeting though and hope it gain enough karma to be on top. Please don't let this place devolve to that ADHD self appreciative mess for the semi coherent.

I have fun using forums under https://xenforo.com/
It's very convenient as it works fine on my mobile phone, at the top of your screen you see updates on threads you've posted on or checked out as well as likes to your posts and PMs sent.

Want to upload a picture? just drag it in from your desktop or even copy paste it from a clipboard.

This kind of forum software makes the forum A LOT more appealing and social and thus more active.

Head-fi.org moved to it as well and they managed to transfer their entire old forum content into the new system.

I guess it's a lot to ask from Swamper though, just wishful thinking.

quote:

Originally posted by Viber I have fun using forums under https://xenforo.com/ It's very convenient as it works fine on my mobile phone, at the top of your screen you see updates on threads you've posted on or checked out as well as likes to your posts and PMs sent. Want to upload a picture? just drag it in from your desktop or even copy paste it from a clipboard. This kind of forum software makes the forum A LOT more appealing and social and thus more active. Head-fi.org moved to it as well and they managed to transfer their entire old forum content into the new system. I guess it's a lot to ask from Swamper though, just wishful thinking.

I decided a long time ago that any upgrade would be XF and not vbulletin... they unfortunately royally fucked up VB many years ago when the original developers left (around 2009/2010) and XF took some time to surface as a viable alternative. I would also not mess up the desktop version... since it is mainly us oldschoolers who are left that would be a dumb idea.

The largest (successful) forum that is (still) running this same (ancient) version of vBulletin as TA is SomethingAwful. It is heavily modified though but the back end is the same. They have 60+ million posts and 5000+ logged in users... what is funny is that they somehow managed to pull off a $10 membership fee as the means to control trolls. That wouldn't work here but I was surprised by it. Their general guidelines are smart though.

Looking at headfi - I don't like how they did their template with the user info/header is set up to show ABOVE each post in a thread... rather than the side. It just means you have to scroll a lot more.

___________________

"In a world of illusion you only see what you feel"

quote:

Originally posted by Viber I see ur pvd and i raise u 1 armen

I raise j00...

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Mikey Mike Social outcasts are often of the opinion that they must have a drink before being able to loosen up with their inhibitions, thus being able to have a good time. There's a word that sums up this sort of behaviour, and that word is 'reject.'

quote:

Originally posted by _Ocean_Drive_ I raise j00...

YES! the video with the midget!
You don't know how long ive been searching for this lol
Search strings like "armin + midget" , "armin sammy pop little guy" never worked

It's easier searching for the singer's name (Roel van Velzen).
Which is the first thing google inappropriately suggests here using your first search string.

quote:

Originally posted by Midlothian It's easier searching for the singer's name (Roel van Velzen). Which is the first thing google inappropriately suggests here using your first search string.

wow you're right. i searched for it many years ago. i wonder why i never found it.

quote:

Originally posted by Viber wow you're right. i searched for it many years ago. i wonder why i never found it.

The little guy is pretty good. He can sing, play guitar, drums and piano and was successful with this cover. I'm pretty sure Armin is jealous at those skills

___________________

Longest (classic) Trance playlist on YouTube (5000 tracks released up to and including 1997), click here

quote:

Originally posted by Viber YES! the video with the midget! You don't know how long ive been searching for this lol Search strings like "armin + midget" , "armin sammy pop little guy" never worked

I made this video!! Glad it had such an lasting effect!

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Mikey Mike Social outcasts are often of the opinion that they must have a drink before being able to loosen up with their inhibitions, thus being able to have a good time. There's a word that sums up this sort of behaviour, and that word is 'reject.'

quote:

Originally posted by Trance-M The little guy is pretty good. He can sing, play guitar, drums and piano and was successful with this cover. I'm pretty sure Armin is jealous at those skills

hehe this guy is legit!

Glad I stopped by for my biannual TA visit in time to catch this thread while it's semi active!

Actually seems a bit busier than last time? Never been a massive contributor but have booked plenty of lurking time. Is it really that hard to give it at least a freshening lick of paint?!?

I've found my tastes diversifying a fair bit since the early 00s, into almost every other type of electronic music. I am encouraged by some of the more melodic atmospheric stuff I've heard recently. It is now labelled as progressive house on Beatport; most of it is more 118 than 138, which is fine by me but probably not great for the clubs.

I'm on Something Awful and have been for a long time - they cater for indepth discussion on such a massive range of subjects, but it was actually the front page content that drew me in initially. With the paid account and swift bans, combined with the often very cliquey humour it amazes me they're still going so strongly. The ability to buy avatars for other posters must be a huge moneyspinner though.

Just want to thank John for playing a big part in one of my favourite nights out - Two Tribes Melbourne 2002, my friends were there for Tiesto but I got them to your set and you stole the show for them that evening.

quote:

Originally posted by Tweak Glad I stopped by for my biannual TA visit in time to catch this thread while it's semi active! Actually seems a bit busier than last time? Never been a massive contributor but have booked plenty of lurking time. Is it really that hard to give it at least a freshening lick of paint?!? I've found my tastes diversifying a fair bit since the early 00s, into almost every other type of electronic music. I am encouraged by some of the more melodic atmospheric stuff I've heard recently. It is now labelled as progressive house on Beatport; most of it is more 118 than 138, which is fine by me but probably not great for the clubs. I'm on Something Awful and have been for a long time - they cater for indepth discussion on such a massive range of subjects, but it was actually the front page content that drew me in initially. With the paid account and swift bans, combined with the often very cliquey humour it amazes me they're still going so strongly. The ability to buy avatars for other posters must be a huge moneyspinner though. Just want to thank John for playing a big part in one of my favourite nights out - Two Tribes Melbourne 2002, my friends were there for Tiesto but I got them to your set and you stole the show for them that evening.

To be honest, this place is actually busier than most forums these days. If anything it's getting busier in recent months.

I don't really understand SA - it seems to be a general forum of everything and having to pay seems bizarre to me, and I'm amazed it worked.