I couldn't resist.

the rest of the thread blew way off topic and I just felt like inserting a smartass remark.

I could care less about the 5 cent fee. I do 3/4 of my food shopping (at least) at places other than big grocery stores who have terrible prices and suspect 'freshness'. 80% of what's in a grocery store is refined crap anyway.

I take reusable bags with me and wash them regularly unless I need a few bags to be used a 2nd time as garbage and organic recycling bags. I live alone, but I think I throw out my "garbage" once ever week and a half to two weeks, *max*. the rest is recyclable.

the reusable bags hold up well over time and you reduce or eliminate the bacteria issue if you regularly wash them and perhaps keep one aside for meats and ensure it gets a more thorough wash.

but god help you if you suggest that people should put forth some effort by storing and washing reusable bags instead of sending tons of plastic to landfill every year though. the horror!

pay for it now...or pay for it later when our taxes escalate to cover the increasing costs of waste disposal. either way, we'll find a way to bitch about it.

edit: as pointed out...the issue isn't the fee or even the alleged 'green logic' behind it...it's that the gov't is legislating it. it's the usual dilemna...social engineering vs. choice. the problem is that society is so selfish and ignorant that 100% choice doesn't work...but none of us (hopefully) wants the pendulum to swing fully the other way where even higher levels of state regulation are the case.

middle ground?

They jacked up garbage rates last year. So they are already getting you on both ends!! Why cant people just admit that this is nothing more than a vain attempt by city hall to make it look like they are doing something combined with business trying to make an extra few bucks?

This has NOTHING to do with the environment other than using it as a PR tool for this scheme.

Also Mark, The city has been touting its success in the last few years about how much garbage has been diverted to recycling. Also this law ignores the fact that most people reuse and recycle plastic bags on their own. The city also has no business regulating these things. Its possibly provincial and definitely federal and should focus on packaging. Even then many companies have already reduced packaging on its own to save money and for good PR. The plastic bag scheme does little more than cost people money or act as an inconvenience to them.

If this council cared so much for the environment then they wouldnt be looking for ways to create even more traffic jams in this city... but i digress.

The city needs to get back to basic managing of construction, infrastructure and leisure services which it is failing miserably at and butt out of areas it has no business being in.

I certainly agree with your last point.

At the municipal level, in a city of this size, gov't should not be focusing on (relatively) unimportant bylaws that primary address 'nuissance' issues when we have much more pressing and important issues concerning transit, infrastructure, urban planning and public safety.

but I'm unconvinced that 'most people' are dilligent in recycling or reducing waste and consumption. now does that mean that this behaviour *should* be legislated by gov't? tough call. it really depends on what your view on the roll of gov't should be and whether or not it's an important enough issue that it simply can't be left to the people alone.

that's really my question. I do NOT think gov't should have to spend time and resources on this type of issue...but I also am confident that it can't be ignored and left 100% to 'consumer choice'. I would argue that consumers are largely fickle, somewhat lazy and often selfish. whatever is cheaper and easier tends to win, unless the alternative is relatively simple and doesn't demand significant effort. it's easy to separate bottles and newspaper, but we can recycle so much more. it takes some effort to have 3 separate waste systems in in the home rather than dumping everything into one big garbage and tossing it by the curb. it also takes far more effort to consciously reduce our waste and reuse whatever possible.

I'm all for incentives being the ideal solution. but if incentives alone don't enact the desired (some might argue 'necessary') change, then punitive measures might be the only option. we can fine people for not recycling and 'punish' excessive packaging at the manufacturing and consumer level with some sort of tax. I find the bottled water society we're in to be fucking absurd, for example. tax it and pump the proceeds into related initiatives?

laissez-faire is great in theory...but I remain unconvinced that it can work in today's society.

Thank you MarkT, you hit it PERFECT

MarkT without any incentive or legislation you chose reusable bags like thousands others, it seems by reading your post, way before this bylaw.

No one forced you to abandon plastic bags, you made the choice.

Awareness takes years to entrench itself within the consumers habits, you are an early adopter, others will follow. Why not let the consumers be themselves and decide what's best for them. I don't believe consumers are that dumb as you tend to portray it, but they do chose what is the most convenient for themselves during a particular moment.

All this because of a bylaw micro-managing the lifes of Torontians, while the city should concentrate on proper infrastructure, finding new landfills being one of them. The city should be about macro-management, not micro-management.

This bylaw creates a false urgency about the landfills being full, and pushes these new habits onto the consumers, sure there will be a friction.

I have a very hard time believing that Toronto, the richest and most powerful city in Canada, has trouble with its landfills in the second largest country on Earth, geez it's not Monaco.

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[/IMG]http://i54.tinypic.com/ngycqo.png[/IMG]

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 LOL!! cant wait for someone to start telling you to use a cloth bag for that! hahaha

I've seen back home in my former country (or even here maybe, can't remember now) some city-parks where they provide a free mini-paper bag for people to take when necessary in order to encourage them to pick up after their pet...

I guess that is mandated by the local/municipal government, is that bad too? Cause it might come from your taxes, you know???

___________________
Music was my first love
and it will be my last
Music of the future
And music of the past
To live without my music
would be impossible to do
Cause in these times of trouble
My music pulls me through...

quote:

Originally posted by Rodrico To be honest, I dont mind the big guy up there, I just hate all his fanclubs.

***I've got hairgel in my bathroom and Tylenol near my bed***

quote:

Originally posted by malek dude thats what I'm gonna do if I shop there, pick a shit load of these bags, and bag my stuff with them, just to prove a point

I think that the person running your order through the cash register hardly cares, they have more important things to worry about, and I imagine that these kinds of jobs can be quite stressful (speaking from experience obtained some years ago working the summer at McD)... likewise, if you make the employees at a grocery chain foodstore unload and re-shelf $100 - $200 worth of merchandise just to prove a point, you're only punishing the employees IMO.

By the way... I've once been handed a transparent plastic bag like that by a very nice lady cashier at my local Price Chopper. She saw that I didn't have a bag with me for my purchase so she gave me one or a couple of those and I think might have even put my stuff in it for me. Not having a bag wasn't such a big deal for me that time, cause my Price Chopper is literally about two-three minutes walking distance from my house, so sometimes I even carried things in my hands if I made an unplanned trip for a few items there... but I just wanted to point it out. Cashiers can have nice attitude and be friendly and pleasant too

___________________
Music was my first love
and it will be my last
Music of the future
And music of the past
To live without my music
would be impossible to do
Cause in these times of trouble
My music pulls me through...

quote:

Originally posted by Rodrico To be honest, I dont mind the big guy up there, I just hate all his fanclubs.

***I've got hairgel in my bathroom and Tylenol near my bed***

quote:

Originally posted by Cro_Addict i have never understood this shit. Actually none of the "reserved" spots including expecting mothers and handicapped. So you're telling me you need a closer spot so your walk to the store is shorter, but yet you have enough energy to walk around the store for half an hour? makes no sense.

My stepfather has been diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis for over a decade now, and believe me when I say that he cannot walk around the story for half-an-hour... sometimes he cannot even go for a longer walk... he's not in a wheelchair (yet), but when he walks, it looks as if he was drunk or some invisible person was pushing and shoving him. I think that in some cases these "special" parking spots do have justifiable value...

___________________
Music was my first love
and it will be my last
Music of the future
And music of the past
To live without my music
would be impossible to do
Cause in these times of trouble
My music pulls me through...

quote:

Originally posted by Rodrico To be honest, I dont mind the big guy up there, I just hate all his fanclubs.

***I've got hairgel in my bathroom and Tylenol near my bed***

quote:

Originally posted by Djsketchbag I do agree with your point, but thats why meals on wheels was invented

And that's not giving those truly handicapped people a choice to go to the grocery store and buy the preferred food that they'd like to eat on their own accord. It restricts them to rely on a food-delivery service instead, instead of giving them the freedom and possibility to be more self-reliant and independent. And Jayx1 is all about allowing people choices and possibilities in their day-to-day lives, is he not Jay?

___________________
Music was my first love
and it will be my last
Music of the future
And music of the past
To live without my music
would be impossible to do
Cause in these times of trouble
My music pulls me through...

quote:

Originally posted by Rodrico To be honest, I dont mind the big guy up there, I just hate all his fanclubs.

***I've got hairgel in my bathroom and Tylenol near my bed***

quote:

Originally posted by Kamka And that's not giving those truly handicapped people a choice to go to the grocery store and buy the preferred food that they'd like to eat on their own accord. It restricts them to rely on a food-delivery service instead, instead of giving them the freedom and possibility to be more self-reliant and independent. And Jayx1 is all about allowing people choices and possibilities in their day-to-day lives, is he not Jay?

www.sobeys.com for all your online grocery shopping needs.

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quote:

Scott has been introduced to the rave scene, and Ecstasy, by Craig. The two of them go out on the weekends, with some of Craigs friends, and stay up all night, dancing in a drug-fueled trance.

Last edited by Moral Hazard on Apr-26-2011 at 07:48

btw one more interesting point, the policy at my grocery store is that if a customer chooses not to buy plastic or reusuable bags, the items must still be placed in those produce plastic bags with a paid for sticker attached. and those are not charged for