A question for Halcyon (and proponents).

How do you feel about casual sex, i.e. sex for pleasure? Do you deny that most sex that is had is for that simple purpose? Or do you not like that idea? A legislation that I and Psy-T suggest would surely reduce the stress and risk of having casual sex. You should always be responsible when having sex, sure, but not to the extent of possibly giving up tens of thousands of dollars and 18 years of your life.

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Originally posted by Lira ... What?!

in other words, it's a faulty analogy.

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Originally posted by Lira That the sperm and the ovum spontaneously don't do anything. They need all this external help to do anything at all.

and how is that external help different to the external help an embryo requires?

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Originally posted by Lira Of course it does - the fluids that guide both the sperm and the ovum aren't the sperm and the ovum.

alright then, reconsider my posts with those instructions i mentioned in my previous post.

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Originally posted by Lira Actually, there's one thing that's making me curious: so far, you've been asking several questions, yet you haven't given your opinion... Are you rebutting just for the sake of finding a flaw, even when you can't find one?

i'm trying to make you reach the same conclusions i reach, and i'm doing this by asking you the questions that i believe will lead you to those conclusions. i guess you may call the majority of my questions to you semi-rhetorical. my opinion in regards to our specific discussion were offered in the post that re-started said discussion.

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I do not fuck strangers, if that is what you are asking, Distant.

Most sex is out of pleasure, yes. Your mother fucked your father. I bet she screamed, too. Your father nailed your mom hard. I bet they both liked it a lot.

Reducing stress for people who want to have casual, pleasurable sex? Fuck that. Sex is pleasurable enough, why is there some sort of necessity for stress-reduction laws that pretty much end up in kids being left father-less?

I was a total accident. My parents had just met one another and were only dating for a few months before I became an element in their lives. If the state of Oklahoma had allowed for abortions back in 1986, I wouldn't be here. They divorced when I was 2 because (my mother claims) that my dad didn't want a large part in supporting me as a father and was always out with his friends, still trying to live "the single life". If the government had given him pardon in fatherhood and allowed him to walk away without paying child support, my life would be drastically different and I wouldn't have one of the greatest people I know and look up to in my life. He was 20 years old - do you think that he would have stuck around? I don't. The man has changed a lot in the past 20 years (as most people do) and has since had another child (planned) because he realized how great a thing fatherhood is. He is a very loving parent to both my sister and I and his outlook on the world has changed all because he was forced to live up to his responsibility in life. He signed no contract with my mother - she signed no contract with him, but they both signed a contract with one another when their bodies met to form me, and they both know it. People simply know these things - is it "logical"? I don't really know. I don't think so. But just because something is illogical doesn't mean it is insignificant or ignorant.

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There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

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Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On I do not fuck strangers, if that is what you are asking, Distant. Most sex is out of pleasure, yes. Your mother fucked your father. I bet she screamed, too. Your father nailed your mom hard. I bet they both liked it a lot.

I mean exclusively out of pleasure. My mom and dad intended to have me.

I think we're operating based on completely different value systems.

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Originally posted by Psy-T in other words, it's a faulty analogy.

Oh, I see.

No, it's not a fault analogy - I never referred to the act itself. I'm talking about how two earlier ingredients are not the final product.

How these ingredients come together is of little importance.

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Originally posted by Psy-T and how is that external help different to the external help an embryo requires?

It's easy - it needs a whole other organism to become something else.

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Originally posted by Psy-T alright then, reconsider my posts with those instructions i mentioned in my previous post.

But it undermine the whole initial argument

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Originally posted by Psy-T i'm trying to make you reach the same conclusions i reach, and i'm doing this by asking you the questions that i believe will lead you to those conclusions.

You know that I like talking with you, mate, but this is tiresome. Instead of debating and convincing me, you want me to write what you want to read, even when you seem not to find a reason why I should.

Have you even read/studied anything on this topic, or are you just trying to convince me of what you want to be true/right?

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quote:

Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On Most sex is out of pleasure, yes. Your mother fucked your father. I bet she screamed, too. Your father nailed your mom hard. I bet they both liked it a lot.

lol, was that meant as an insult? if so, why did you want to insult him?

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Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On Reducing stress for people who want to have casual, pleasurable sex? Fuck that. Sex is pleasurable enough, why is there some sort of necessity for stress-reduction laws that pretty much end up in kids being left father-less?

i think you got your terms mixed up there, because you still don't grasp the influence the legistlation we're offering is likely to have.

the status quo pretty much ends up in kids being left father-less but with 'enough' financial support.

what we're suggesting pretty much ends up in less kids being born, especially by 'mistakes', and thus less kids being left father-less, and thus less taxes to pay, and thus a better economy, and thus and thus and thus...

if these suggested laws have been in place back when you were born, it's indeed infinitely more likely that you wouldn't have been born (though that's not to say no-one would've been born as a result of the same engagement between your parents supposing it'd occur) but that's not saying very much considering what would happen if even a single atom would've been missing somewhere in the world at some point or another (you probably wouldn't have been born then either, nor i, nor anyone else here, nor would this place exist, et cetera).

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People who own my ass: Citric Acid, Boomer187, Tribu, Sand Leaper,
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Originally posted by Psy-T lol, was that meant as an insult? if so, why did you want to insult him?

No, I wasn't trying to insult anybody. I did however listen to MSI - I'm Your Problem Now earlier, so maybe that explains me writing that.

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i think you got your terms mixed up there, because you still don't grasp the influence the legistlation we're offering is likely to have. the status quo pretty much ends up in kids being left father-less but with 'enough' financial support. what we're suggesting pretty much ends up in less kids being born, especially by 'mistakes', and thus less kids being left father-less, and thus less taxes to pay, and thus a better economy, and thus and thus and thus... if these suggested laws have been in place back when you were born, it's indeed infinitely more likely that you wouldn't have been born (though that's not to say no-one would've been born as a result of the same engagement between your parents supposing it'd occur) but that's not saying very much considering what would happen if even a single atom would've been missing somewhere in the world at some point or another (you probably wouldn't have been born then either, nor i, nor anyone else here, nor would this place exist, et cetera).

I honestly do not think that there is anything you can do to discourage children being born. I don't think there is much you can do to prevent kids being orphaned/motherless/fatherless either, but the way I see it, you might as well make it as hard as possible for that thing to happen, at least for the sake of the child's well-being, if anything. If you have such an awesome suggestion for population control though, maybe you should write letters to some select countries in the world - start wiht India and China.

___________________
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

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Originally posted by Lira Oh, I see. No, it's not a fault analogy - I never referred to the act itself. I'm talking about how two earlier ingredients are not the final product. How these ingredients come together is of little importance.

a zygote isn't the 'final product' either, it's an earlier 'ingrediant' that requires the womb, nutrients, and time to produce the 'final product'.

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Originally posted by Lira It's easy - it needs a whole other organism to become something else.

i don't see the major difference that would warrant putting what i consider to be an arbitrary line exactly here, the first (impregnation) requires (under normal circumstances) two whole organisms, and the latter (development of the zygote) requires one whole organism.

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Originally posted by Lira But it undermine the whole initial argument

how so? except for under extreme circumstances, the whole process occurs as a result to our natural inclination for sexual gratification.

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Originally posted by Lira You know that I like talking with you, mate, but this is tiresome. Instead of debating and convincing me, you want me to write what you want to read, even when you seem not to find a reason why I should.

but i did find a reason - the fact that it's arbitrary i wouldn't have called you back here if i didn't have one

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Originally posted by Lira Have you even read/studied anything on this topic, or are you just trying to convince me of what you want to be true/right?

i didn't even have an opinion on these subjects before this thread was created the more i discuss my ideas, the more i perfect them. also, i'm enjoying the discussion, but if you're truly finding this tiresome, i'm sorry.

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People who own my ass: Citric Acid, Boomer187, Tribu, Sand Leaper,
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Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On If you have such an awesome suggestion for population control though, maybe you should write letters to some select countries in the world - start wiht India and China.

i'm only interested in discussing such ideas, i've no actual practical interest in the future and particularily the future beyond my death (though i do pretend to have one for the sake of discussions such as these).

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People who own my ass: Citric Acid, Boomer187, Tribu, Sand Leaper,
Jackson, venomX, jamie, Renegade, Konjin, Akridrot, Miss Bliss.
Psy-T - Down The Rabbit Hole (400minute long acid set)

quote:

Originally posted by Psy-T a zygote isn't the 'final product' either, it's an earlier 'ingrediant' that requires the womb, nutrients, and time to produce the 'final product'.

Sure enough, but it doesn't merge with the womb or anything.

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Originally posted by Psy-T i don't see the major difference that would warrant putting what i consider to be an arbitrary line exactly here, the first (impregnation) requires (under normal circumstances) two whole organisms, and the latter (development of the zygote) requires one whole organism.

Alon, any decision you make, any concept you develop and even any word you say is arbitrary. Its validity depends on how it reflects reality. In this case, you take for granted that other people are alive, and that their life started as soon as they were conceived (if you choose a moment before conception, you end up wondering whether "life" came from the sperm or the ovum; and, if you choose a moment after the conception, you end up being trapped in a debate on how that's the beginning of life if the organism was "developing" on its own earlier).

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Originally posted by Psy-T how so? except for under extreme circumstances, the whole process occurs as a result to our natural inclination for sexual gratification.

Yeah, but weren't we talking about how external fluids are not the same thing as the haploid cell in question? I'm confused now

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Originally posted by Psy-T but i did find a reason - the fact that it's arbitrary i wouldn't have called you back here if i didn't have one

As I said earlier, all decisions are arbitrary, you cannot escape that.

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Originally posted by Psy-T i didn't even have an opinion on these subjects before this thread was created the more i discuss my ideas, the more i perfect them. also, i'm enjoying the discussion, but if you're truly finding this tiresome, i'm sorry.

No, it's not that I'm not enjoying, but it's just that it seemed you were trying to convince me rather than debate - trying to be convinced by someone whose opinions you don't know is rather confusing

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quote:

Originally posted by Lira Alon, any decision you make, any concept you develop and even any word you say is arbitrary. Its validity depends on how it reflects reality. In this case, you take for granted that other people are alive, and that their life started as soon as they were conceived (if you choose a moment before conception, you end up wondering whether "life" came from the sperm or the ovum; and, if you choose a moment after the conception, you end up being trapped in a debate on how that's the beginning of life if the organism was "developing" on its own earlier).

directly-independent human life starts at birth (after the umbilical cord is cut). while that sentence may be arbitrary, would you agree that it's less arbitrary than the phrase "life starts at birth" for example? if not, please help me see what makes it just as arbitrary.

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People who own my ass: Citric Acid, Boomer187, Tribu, Sand Leaper,
Jackson, venomX, jamie, Renegade, Konjin, Akridrot, Miss Bliss.
Psy-T - Down The Rabbit Hole (400minute long acid set)