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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you were the one who said that comparisons between the War in Iraq and WWII were unfair and stupid. To continue your own line of logic that was offered earlier, to compare a war in which the United States was attacked by a hostile regime and thousands of Americans had already been killed -- and international law and justice were on our side -- to a rodeo where the US defied international law and order and invaded a sovereign state on false pretenses? I expected better.

I never said that WWII and Iraq have zero comparative value. You didn't continue my line of logic at all because in war, civilian death is civilian death. Everyone is just SHOCKED at these numbers when its been a pretty mild war. If you want to play a numbers game, then look at the numbers. This ain't that bad considering how many countries are involved.

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And here's my exit plan. You're right, Iraq is more or less screwed. The longer we stay, the more screwed up it becomes. While I'd love to stay if only to make things better and fix what we made wrong, that simply isn't going to ever be a viable option. When Great Britain was overwhelmed by sectarian violence in India in the 1940's, they simply packed their bags and withdrew. Yes, the partitioning process was painful and over a million people lost their lives. Yes, there was mass emigration within the colony, and it was very unstable for a time. But today we have three independent states where one colony once existed, with residence for the most part determined by the individual (with some notable exceptions). That's a distinct difference than a partition imposed by the United States, as some people suggest should be done in Iraq. It's true that poverty rates in Bangladesh and Pakistan are some of the highest in the world, though things like the Grameen Bank are starting to change that. There are a lot of other issues at play that cause such poverty too. And the only lingering conflict, in Kashmir, is rather frozen. So at least people aren't killing each other en masse on the streets of Hyderabad.

While India may be a "success" story (which is still struggling out of horrifying poverty and terrible human rights violations) the whole of Africa is another case of simply withdrawing and handing things over to the natives. That was multiple countries , all with different approaches, all leaving horrifying failures in the vacuum their withdrawal created.

The time frames we are looking at are staggering either way.

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Originally posted by DarkAngel Can someone please move this huge stinkin' pile of fuckin' political ass bullshit to the PPD forum or whatever it's called.

Dude, just stop reading it. The thread would have ended if it was two posts:

"saddams gonna die"
"saddams dead"

thats not exactly worth posting about if it is an opinion free statement based list of events corresponding to his demise.

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Originally posted by Orbax While India may be a "success" story (which is still struggling out of horrifying poverty and terrible human rights violations) the whole of Africa is another case of simply withdrawing and handing things over to the natives. That was multiple countries , all with different approaches, all leaving horrifying failures in the vacuum their withdrawal created.

Africa was never wracked by the type of sectarian violence we're seeing in Iraq. Most of the problems in Africa are products of the West NOT withdrawing quickly actually. Colonialism in Africa lingered into the seventies, and in some places, colonial powers maintained a significant amount of control over the economies and politics of countries well beyond that. Even in cases of so-called ethnic violence, most are by-products of illegitimate power-sharing schemes installed by colonial powers (reference Belgium's creation of ethnic identity in Rwanda). Not to mention that the United States and the Soviet Union tinkered with instability by promoting rival warlords.

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Originally posted by Orbax Dude, just stop reading it. The thread would have ended if it was two posts: "saddams gonna die" "saddams dead" thats not exactly worth posting about if it is an opinion free statement based list of events corresponding to his demise.

Sigh. I'm going back to bed. And I'm hoping this piece of shit will end up locked later when I wake up. Catch ya later, buddy.

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Originally posted by DarkAngel Sigh. I'm going back to bed. And I'm hoping this piece of shit will end up locked later when I wake up. Catch ya later, buddy.

and it matters to you why? is it in your way? perhaps you could not click on it.

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This thread has given me great reading material. I don't agree with 1/2 of it, but good reading non the less.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Africa was never wracked by the type of sectarian violence we're seeing in Iraq. Most of the problems in Africa are products of the West NOT withdrawing quickly actually. Colonialism in Africa lingered into the seventies, and in some places, colonial powers maintained a significant amount of control over the economies and politics of countries well beyond that. Even in cases of so-called ethnic violence, most are by-products of illegitimate power-sharing schemes installed by colonial powers (reference Belgium's creation of ethnic identity in Rwanda). Not to mention that the United States and the Soviet Union tinkered with instability by promoting rival warlords.

Africa is messy because the "countries" were political lines drawn by a bunch of Europeans that threw them all together and made sworn enemies countrymen.

But, just because it was orchestrated instead of organic hatred, I think the point remains that ethnic/cultural/religious groups that 1.hate one another and 2.are "countrymen" will continue to fight until one is gone or subjugated.

Or until ,....something. Unfortunately its just a matter of becoming civilized that allows for these kinds of hatreds to pass and good luck with alllllllllll that.

I think its pretty much fucked either way. I think that in the long run any systemic changes we embed will benefit more people over a longer period of time.

Withdrawing will put them all into the crucible and we'd sit back and talk about how we never should have done that as they all blow one another up a la "Godfellas" from Futurama (where Bender is God).

Like Africa theres a big "what the hell can we do about it" kind of mentality when looking at a cluster of people who refuse to not kill one another.

I think we should try to get their government up and running, give them some training, and gtfo. Withdrawing now without a single success would just leave a veni, vidi, vici feeling of "we got pwn3d" by the Iraqis. Which is how they'll feel anyway, but now at least they can vote some people who might care about them into office instead of blowing people up until they listen to you.

Democratic systems do offer advantages on how to settle political disputes that the middle east kind of bypasses.

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Originally posted by DJ Mikey Mike My opinion of sooo many people on here has gone way way down.

LOL, the numbers must be in the negatives then.

The Toronto Star says;
Saddam Hangs, "God's gift to Iraq" & The "Butcher of Baghdad"

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660 min. ago Bombings killed at least 68 people in Iraq today in the aftermath of Saddam Hussein's hanging, including one planted on a minibus that exploded in a fish market in a mostly Shiite town south of Baghdad.

SOURCE

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DALLAS STAR ™ °¤§£¤y°

Treat people as if they are what they ought to be and you may help them to become what they are capable of being.

Nah, there's no violence in Iraq today - Only celebration over the death of a dictator!

It's true, I checked with CNN.

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last minute disco dot net

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Originally posted by RJT Nah, there's no violence in Iraq today - Only celebration over the death of a dictator! It's true, I checked with CNN.

did u check if fox news was saying something different?

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2/09/07 Zabiela @ Pacha..... -confirmed-

erik + andy + marie = united in nerdyness <3

ps :wick sucks dicks !

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Originally posted by CranberryJuice did u check if fox news was saying something different?

Fox News is reporting that a punch and pie celebration has broken out all over Iraq - And that everyone has decided to register to vote for peace!

Yay for Democracy!

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last minute disco dot net