quote:

Originally posted by ken_lee its per definition true that the idea of a god exists - therefore god exists.

No. The idea of a god exists, therefore, exists the idea of a god. To think about an object will not make it exist, regardless of how many people think of it. Me thinking that I own a red Ferrari Modena 468, standing outside my house does not make it true.

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Originally posted by ken_lee how could something not existing affect so many?

Very easily, apparently. Again, the fact that many believe in something does not makes it true. Many also believed that once the earth was the galaxy's center. Today there are not many who believe in it. Do you think it means the earth has suddenly become much smaller and has moved to the edge of the Milky Way and the sun changed from rotating around the earth?

Thoughts are just thoughts, not reality. Thoughts can be consistent with reality, but is neither a requirement nor a result of them.

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Originally posted by ken_lee its like a virus, alot of people dont believe in that either because they cant actually see it

Again, faith does not matter. We know viruses exist because we can measure and prove them - not because somebody once said "I think there are viruses!".

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Originally posted by ken_lee the proof that god is present is the fact that the bible is the most sold book of all time.

Harry Potter books also sell quite well. Does Harry Potter then exist?

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Originally posted by ken_lee and to most humans some sort of god is central to their life

No. Belief in a god is central for them. What is central to people's lives has no influence whatsoever on reality.

You are aware that sense and perception are two different things, right? Like, you are (presumably) reading these words... but do they exist? Not the pixels on the screen, but the words, themselves- do they exist? Are they communication? Are they communicating an idea to you, thereby influencing the perception of the conversation?

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, here.

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quote:

Originally posted by EddieZilker It used to be Atlas Shrugged, but now it's Catcher in the Rye. Gabriel finally got tired of Rand's over-simplified characters and thought Salinger a bit more nuanced.

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Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On You are aware that sense and perception are two different things, right? Like, you are (presumably) reading these words... but do they exist? Not the pixels on the screen, but the words, themselves- do they exist? Are they communication? Are they communicating an idea to you, thereby influencing the perception of the conversation? I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, here.

Your words exist as words yet they have no meaning because their is no direct evidence for the existence of their meaning. Individually, they do have meaning - yes - but there is no direct evidence supporting the existence of meaning in the totality of their assemblage. Ergo, your argument is moot.

*Taps Lira back into discussion*




@ Miss Pie:

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my old stuff, not quite up to snuff - but I still dig it - UPDATED 9/23/2012

quote:

Originally posted by Miss Pie

The true irony is that when you look at the mythology Rand was trying to sell, that the people in positions of power presented roadblocks to progress through their own misguided incompetence, and then look at what has been done in the effort to realize Rand's vision for a free-market economy, the United States appears to be living inside a Rand novel the manifestation of which is antithetical Rand's ideal.

___________________

Now with extra singles!
my old stuff, not quite up to snuff - but I still dig it - UPDATED 9/23/2012

How can you believe god is real, but not believe in him? It makes no sense.
That fact that you can feel the actions of others, because they believe in God, is again not an argument for God - it only shows that people believe in him.


No, the world did not get any smaller when we discovered it was not the center. Earth kept exactly the same size as it was before. The only difference was our new knowledge. Only symbolically can we talk about changes in world size.

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Originally posted by ken_lee my GF wants to see harry potter on movie theatre. it affects me directly having to make my dinner myself that night. therefore harry potter isnt just a fantasy - its real.

Again: Harry Potter the movie affects you. The movie is real. People who see and read Harry Potter affect you. Harry Potter himself does not effect you, for he is not real.

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if it wherent for god id never been in a church playing an organ pipe because the church wouldnt be there. not to mention all the war and violence in the world. its real to me.

Again, things that show evidence that there are people who believe in God. It says nothing whatsoever about the existence of God.

Well then we are in agreement. God is an idea. Ideas exist as ideas, but not as real objects. If this really is your only claim - that an idea is an idea - i Don't disagree.

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Originally posted by chlola Do you believe in God? If so... please explain to me why he lets a 17 year old boy with a heart of gold, die of liver failure the day before his senior prom ....

Well, if there were a God, surely it is no more likely that he's the kind, caring type than say, the pernicious, malevolent variety. No?

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Originally posted by Arbiter Well, if there were a God, surely it is no more likely that he's the kind, caring type than say, the pernicious, malevolent variety. No?

Reason why I reckon dystheism and maltheism are more plausible hypotheses than the plain-vanilla (eu)theism most people seem to espouse in Abrahamic religions.

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