quote:

Originally posted by Skipper Well what the hell else would they have to worry about? They certainly aren't concerned with mortgage defaults.

lol, no kidding.

when the majority of population lives in poverty, suffers from disease and malnutrition, etc., you really don't give a fuck about the markets.

and they SHOULD be concerned about aid during times such as these. Politically, there is a lot of pressure to clean up one's own backyard before handing out money to others.

side note: CIBC plunged below $50/share, trading around it's 52 week low...which is less than half of it's 52 week high.

This is Harper's downfall...he's not being honest with Canadians about the seriousness of the situation. I'm not saying he's unaware, or doesn't have a sound plan (whatever that plan is), but his public "don't worry" attitude is having the opposite of a calming effect. It's not sitting well when evidence to to contrary is running 24/7 on the news and the Liberals are moving up...

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Originally posted by MarkT This is Harper's downfall...he's not being honest with Canadians about the seriousness of the situation. I'm not saying he's unaware, or doesn't have a sound plan (whatever that plan is), but his public "don't worry" attitude is having the opposite of a calming effect. It's not sitting well when evidence to to contrary is running 24/7 on the news and the Liberals are moving up...

I just wish people understood how bad a carbon tax is for the economy.

I personally think the Canadian economy will continue in its recession or go into one soon, and we should not have government coming in with some big "plan" to artificially prop up industries throughout it. BOC liquidity injections are one thing, but I generally believe in the conservative fiscal principles of letting the markets sort themselves out.

I agree that the way Harper is delivering the message is not effective though. He'd be better off just reminding people of the above.

But hey, I don't work at Ford either.

I'm in awe of what's going on out there today. Let's all give thanks this weekend for nothing else but the fact that markets will close for three whole days.

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Originally posted by Cosmic Fur The word you're looking for is "racist" :P

...some may say that lol

But i'm not racist towards a particular race. I discriminate and hate everyone equally...

so what does that make me??

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Originally posted by Skipper I just wish people understood how bad a carbon tax is for the economy. I personally think the Canadian economy will continue in its recession or go into one soon, and we should not have government coming in with some big "plan" to artificially prop up industries throughout it. BOC liquidity injections are one thing, but I generally believe in the conservative fiscal principles of letting the markets sort themselves out. I agree that the way Harper is delivering the message is not effective though. He'd be better off just reminding people of the above. But hey, I don't work at Ford either. I'm in awe of what's going on out there today. Let's all give thanks this weekend for nothing else but the fact that markets will close for three whole days.

+1 lol

I believe in the markets working themselves out. Yes, the laissez-faire approach created this mess in the first place but I don't think government intervention will have much positive effect (which so far is true).

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Originally posted by Skipper I just wish people understood how bad a carbon tax is for the economy. ...

alright...but can you explain exactly how the carbon tax is 'bad for the economy'?

becuase the CPC has failed to concretely demonstrate how it would be harmful, other than to provide a dumbed down "tax is bad" public response.

This is exactly why the CPC ads are "Dion is not worth the risk". they CAN'T say with certainty what WILL happen to the economy as a result...so they play on the fear of the unknown, capitalizing on the public not understanding the carbon tax and its consequences (which is true...we don't understand).

the Liberals (and Green Party, environmental groups, etc.) have ALSO failed to provide any clarity on the potential consequences. They've said it will be revenue neutral, but that doesn't address the entire matter. It just means that, at first, the revenue will be given back as tax cuts. It doesn't say what will happen to the cost of goods/services, the health of the companies taxed, etc. etc. etc.

maybe it's a great plan...maybe it's a disaster waiting to happen. WE DON'T KNOW and the proponents and critics should be able to educate the public more than they have thus far, IMHO.

I think that, at the very least, the average Canadian SHOULD accept there IS a cost to "go green" and that cost can't be shouldered by industry alone. We all have to contribute, because we, as consumers, are indirectly part of the 'problem'. Industry doesn't exist for it's own sake...it exists becuase of consumers! So if it costs more to go green...why would we NOT be expected to pay a portion of that cost?!?

Essentially, it makes production more expensive in a time when production is already expensive (commodity input costs have risen dramatically for manufacturers, plus the dollar's run has put pressure on many businesses - but that's easing). Add in weaker demand due to a global recession (or at least a slow down) and you are either having costs passed along to consumers or businesses taking the hit, neither of which can afford to do so.

I feel more confident in this basic tax principle than I do in handing my vote over to the liberals to wait and see. I don't want trial and error with the economy at a time like this.

What confuses me is how anyone can argue that it would be GOOD for the economy. Maybe it will be bad, maybe it won't be, but I can't comprehend how it would be GOOD.

quote:

Originally posted by Skipper Essentially, it makes production more expensive in a time when production is already expensive (commodity input costs have risen dramatically for manufacturers, plus the dollar's run has put pressure on many businesses - but that's easing). Add in weaker demand due to a global recession (or at least a slow down) and you are either having costs passed along to consumers or businesses taking the hit, neither of which can afford to do so. I feel more confident in this basic tax principle than I do in handing my vote over to the liberals to wait and see. I don't want trial and error with the economy at a time like this. What confuses me is how anyone can argue that it would be GOOD for the economy. Maybe it will be bad, maybe it won't be, but I can't comprehend how it would be GOOD.

I don't think anyone has suggested that there wouldn't be an increased cost....the liberals have suggested they will offset this increase with tax cuts.

I think MarkT said it best in that we should expect there to be costs in going green....whether we start on it now or 10 years from now....there will be an increase in cost. The whole carbon tax is being over played in this election.

It can have a positive affect on the economy as it can create numerous new jobs and create new alternatives for people to use. Personally, I don't think its set up to properly to make industry change....I think harsher measures need to be in place before industries will search out new or different options.

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Scott has been introduced to the rave scene, and Ecstasy, by Craig. The two of them go out on the weekends, with some of Craigs friends, and stay up all night, dancing in a drug-fueled trance.

Last edited by Moral Hazard on Apr-26-2011 at 07:48

^^^ that's exactly it.

I don't think there is ANY smokescreen by Dion and Liberals (or the Greens or anyone else advocating a carbon tax plan) that it is "good" for the economy, in the sense that their won't be consequences.

there will be positive spinoffs (R&D, new technologies, being 1st with new tech = exporting it to others, etc)...but there will be obvious and substantial costs too.

this is an unfortunate time to take on cost...but will there be a "good time" where people and industry will be receptive to 'paying their share'?

I doubt it.

It's easy to cut the GST, crack down on violence, increase jail terms, blah blah blah...but it takes political courage to tell people they have to step up and collectively pay for something like the envrionment, but you're going to help cushion the blow.

IMHO, the CPC lacks this courage and will now desperately cling to power, just like any other gov't teetering on the edge of a weaker mandate, if not defeat.

seriously, who cares about the environment??

I mean, yes on paper people care about it, but don't do anything.

Harper is right on when he doesn't even bother with that "issue".

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Originally posted by malek seriously, who cares about the environment?? I mean, yes on paper people care about it, but don't do anything. Harper is right on when he doesn't even bother with that "issue".

Wow.

I for one can say that the Conservatives have lost my vote because of a lack of environmental policy.

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Originally posted by MarkT ...but will there be a "good time" where people and industry will be receptive to 'paying their share'? I doubt it.

Any time is going to be a better time than right now. Sucks that the rug had to come out from under every single economy in the world after Dion based his platform around increasing corporate taxes, but hey - that's the reality, and it's the reason why I won't vote liberal. If you argue with one hand that the economy needs action because it blows so hard and then propose a carbon tax on the other hand - that's a bit backwards IMO.