quote:

Originally posted by lenieNt Force "Logic" systems are logical to human beings and the dimension we live in and with the fowl brains we have been given to think and gasp observations. Logic is just a concept invented by human beings. It is not so that logic precedes observation, quite the contrary, logic is made up after observations we do as humans.

You don't have to observe anything to know that things don't bring themselves into existence. I didn't. You don't have to observe anything to know that time has a beginning. You don't have to observe anything to know thoughts exist. There are lots of things we know without observing them. Logic is the system that tells us those things. Logic tells us the daughter cannot give birth to her mother. Logic tells us that a computer cannot have programmed that machines that built it. Logic tells us paintings do not paint themselves, and music does not write itself. These are fundamental things we know. The origin of the universe is no different. What I have said about it in this thread, is all stuff that a right-minded person would deduce themselves without ever having to observe anything.

___________________
i'm the alchemist without the cyst without a doubt out of the mist
dig out the grout expose the pest to take it out without the rest

they will attest my patients restorations from the best

i'm from the west i'm not an acmeist only the alchemist

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir mfitterer1 Science is a production of Logic. Logic makes science. Not the other way around. You are implying that there was no logic, then someone came up with science, then logic was formed. Which is wrong. As for infinity, it doesn't require observation to know time and space is not infinite. I mentioned infinity because its part of the Infinite Recession concept, which says that there can't be an unlimited number of events before the current one. The universe [all time and space, and things dependent upon them], there are only two [2] [Doce] options for how it is here... 1. It was brought into existence. 2. It always existed. Number 2 cannot be true simply because of the fallacy Ive mentioned over and over again. Further study in any field of science will not change that. Getting more people to think about it will not change it, nothing will change it, there can not have been an infinite number of events before 1200, 2000, now, pick any date you want, it doesn't matter. Number 1. Things do not bring themselves into existence. The power 'to create', to bring something into existence. Is an attribute. A thing that doesn't exist, is does not have attributes. So it cannot bring itself here. No amount of scientific data, or observation or anything will ever change this fact, ever. A thing that doesn't exist cannot do. Or, to say it more eloquently. ...Doing Entails Being Conclusion? One who is not part of the universe in any way, not bound by any of its laws, brought it here. Anything that has a body, or is located, or changes, or goes through a process, or is a quantity or had a mode or state, is part of the universe, and the one that created all those things, does not need them. fledz, you hang around scientists all day who hate the idea of a Creator, so they only try to look at things that "prove" their notions, and they reject anything that brings them to the conclusion that there is a creator. They are just like Catholics, they accept logic that benefits them, and reject logic that doesn't. Not to mention the western science model is so broke it doesn't even recognize the existence of thought for insatnce. Because thought cannot be observed. On top of that, most of it is polluted with crackpot theories and such, and the situation is so messy, no one cares if their achievements are based on 200 year old unproven theories. They believe what they want to believe. You can have a 'fact' that is based on theories. And if all you have is theories, you have no progress. This old cripple guy, can't think of his name right now..hes made no progress what so ever, yet everyone loves him because they like his theories. Perfect example of people not giving a shit about the basis of someones claim, they only want to hear the claim itself.

Dude. No, no, no! First of all, for any of the stuff to be true logic would have to be fact. Logic in itself is not fact. It cannot be proved. Anything is possible. Some things are more likely to have happened than others BASED on science and math, which then is translated into how logical something is or appears to be.

Just because the smartest people in the world say something doesn't make it fact. It is very possible that nobody has any idea how we got here, how we evolved, etc. People attribute it all to two theories but I mean the possibilities are infinite. Just look at the picture of the galaxies a few pages back. You really think something as large scaled as that doesn't have more complexity than given credit for? Same thing for who/what (trying to keep my opinions out of this) created everything. It could be a supreme being, it could have been millions of coincidences chained together, we could be disciples of dinosaurs and aliens. You just don't know anything man, nobody does. In the grand scheme of things everything is based off of something. The problem is that something could be completely untrue as well. Too big of a realm of possibility.

This is why I don't understand why this conversation is being had. It's actually a deterrent to living as it's only going to upset and aggravate you that you don't and never will know everything. (Especially you)

We are here for a short time. Enjoy it don't waste your time talking about improvable theories and beliefs.

I've finished 2 mixes and a song in the time this thread has been alive, I think you can put your dedication to being the best to better use bro. It's obv that's what this is all about. You want everyone to suck your cock. It will never happen. It's a sick mind game. You are attempting to inflate your self worth by creating a fallacy of stupidity in other people by believing you're never wrong. Good luck in life thinking like that

quote:

Originally posted by mfitterer1 Dude. No, no, no! First of all, for any of the stuff to be true logic would have to be fact. Logic in itself is not fact. It cannot be proved. Anything is possible. Some things are more likely to have happened than others BASED on science and math, which then is translated into how logical something is or appears to be. Just because the smartest people in the world say something doesn't make it fact. It is very possible that nobody has any idea how we got here, how we evolved, etc. People attribute it all to two theories but I mean the possibilities are infinite. Just look at the picture of the galaxies a few pages back. You really think something as large scaled as that doesn't have more complexity than given credit for? Same thing for who/what (trying to keep my opinions out of this) created everything. It could be a supreme being, it could have been millions of coincidences chained together, we could be disciples of dinosaurs and aliens. You just don't know anything man, nobody does. In the grand scheme of things everything is based off of something. The problem is that something could be completely untrue as well. Too big of a realm of possibility. This is why I don't understand why this conversation is being had. It's actually a deterrent to living as it's only going to upset and aggravate you that you don't and never will know everything. (Especially you) We are here for a short time. Enjoy it don't waste your time talking about improvable theories and beliefs. I've finished 2 mixes and a song in the time this thread has been alive, I think you can put your dedication to being the best to better use bro. It's obv that's what this is all about. You want everyone to suck your cock. It will never happen. It's a sick mind game. You are attempting to inflate your self worth by creating a fallacy of stupidity in other people by believing you're never wrong. Good luck in life thinking like that

Logic is fact.

Logic is the thing that doesn't have to be proved. I don't have to prove to you that 4+4=8. Logic is a proof.

When you have a conclusion where logic alone doesn't prove it, then you have to provide evidence as proof. If you have a cup of water and you say "water flows down towards the earth"..logic alone cannot prove that statement. Evidence in the form of observation [seeing the water flow down] does prove that statement. However, logic does prove that the water exists, because its there. And no amount of research or "evidence" you find will ever change that fact. That is logic.

___________________
i'm the alchemist without the cyst without a doubt out of the mist
dig out the grout expose the pest to take it out without the rest

they will attest my patients restorations from the best

i'm from the west i'm not an acmeist only the alchemist

quote:

Originally posted by mfitterer1 In the grand scheme of things everything is based off of something. The problem is that something could be completely untrue as well. Too big of a realm of possibility.

Exactly.

quote:

Originally posted by mfitterer1 You just don't know anything man, nobody does.

Exactly. It's just that it's human to want to understand, and many cant take it that they do not understand, so they convince themselves that they do based on all kinds of different hypothesis. It is not the intention that humans should understand it all, and how the universe came about. If it was, everybody would know. It would be common sense.

You can not prove the universe had a start, nor can you prove it did not.

Ive not mentioned any theories.

If you question every thought that enters your mind, despite all the logic and evidence that shows that thought to be true/false. Then no, you will never understand anything.

The irony is that most people here accept certain things as facts because some guy on a forum said so[bitrate, latency, wav samples, audio bouncing, hardware vs software, music theory]. While at the same time, simple logical proofs are thrown out the window. How is that not a case of "I will only accept what I want to accept."

___________________
i'm the alchemist without the cyst without a doubt out of the mist
dig out the grout expose the pest to take it out without the rest

they will attest my patients restorations from the best

i'm from the west i'm not an acmeist only the alchemist

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir If you question every thought that enters your mind, despite all the logic and evidence that shows that thought to be true/false. Then no, you will never understand anything.

this is obviously your field. fucking christian

I'm not a christian. Not protestant, not Catholic, nothing.

I'm simply someone who realizes the truth.

___________________
i'm the alchemist without the cyst without a doubt out of the mist
dig out the grout expose the pest to take it out without the rest

they will attest my patients restorations from the best

i'm from the west i'm not an acmeist only the alchemist

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir The truth.

"The truth" yea exactly. Then I guess we have nothing to discuss, since you know it all. Are you really human? I think not.

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir Ive not mentioned any theories. If you question every thought that enters your mind, despite all the logic and evidence that shows that thought to be true/false. Then no, you will never understand anything. The irony is that most people here accept certain things as facts because some guy on a forum said so[bitrate, latency, wav samples, audio bouncing, hardware vs software, music theory]. While at the same time, simple logical proofs are thrown out the window. How is that not a case of "I will only accept what I want to accept."

As you can tell, I changed the wording to hypothesis instead of theories, for obvious reasons.

And yes you have been mentioning a theory (hypothesis, rather):

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir I mentioned infinity because its part of the Infinite Recession concept, which says that there can't be an unlimited number of events before the current one. The universe [all time and space, and things dependent upon them], there are only two [2] [Doce] options for how it is here... 1. It was brought into existence. 2. It always existed. Number 2 cannot be true simply because of the fallacy Ive mentioned over and over again. Further study in any field of science will not change that. Getting more people to think about it will not change it, nothing will change it, there can not have been an infinite number of events before 1200, 2000, now, pick any date you want, it doesn't matter. Number 1. Things do not bring themselves into existence. The power 'to create', to bring something into existence. Is an attribute. A thing that doesn't exist, is does not have attributes. So it cannot bring itself here. No amount of scientific data, or observation or anything will ever change this fact, ever. A thing that doesn't exist cannot do. Or, to say it more eloquently. ...Doing Entails Being Conclusion? One who is not part of the universe in any way, not bound by any of its laws, brought it here. Anything that has a body, or is located, or changes, or goes through a process, or is a quantity or had a mode or state, is part of the universe, and the one that created all those things, does not need them.

But if you say so.. you haven't mentioned any theories, then I guess you realize yourself that this isn't any theory, but a hypothesis. An unproven theory.

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir Logic is fact. Logic is the thing that doesn't have to be proved. I don't have to prove to you that 4+4=8. Logic is a proof.

4 + 4 = 8 has nothing to do with logic. You don't even understand what logic is do you

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quote:

Originally posted by lenieNt Force As you can tell, I changed the wording to hypothesis instead of theories, for obvious reasons. And yes you have been mentioning a theory (hypothesis, rather): But if you say so.. you haven't mentioned any theories, then I guess you realize yourself that this isn't any theory, but a hypothesis. An unproven theory.

There was never any theory. Humans have always known there is a creator. Recently [as in, last 3-4 thousand years] the idea that there is no creator has been perpetuated and in some places it is the majority view.

Not everyone will realize it obviously. Especially when you have people out there who purposefully do things that prevents others from realizing it.


...

fledz, logic is the proof that 4+4=8. No one ever taught me that. People taught me what 4 was and what 8 was, and by my own logic I realized two fours make an eight.

___________________
i'm the alchemist without the cyst without a doubt out of the mist
dig out the grout expose the pest to take it out without the rest

they will attest my patients restorations from the best

i'm from the west i'm not an acmeist only the alchemist

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir There was never any theory. Humans have always known there is a creator. Recently [as in, last 3-4 thousand years] the idea that there is no creator has been perpetuated and in some places it is the majority view. Not everyone will realize it obviously. Especially when you have people out there who purposefully do things that prevents others from realizing it. Faith =! Certainty

No, we haven't. We thought the earth was flat and we were wrong. We thought the earth was the centre of the universe but it's not. We believed in a God because we didn't understand how the world works, at least not to a level where we could question the universe. Now we can and while we still may believe in a higher power, we don't 100% guarantee it. Nobody smart enough does.

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir fledz, logic is the proof that 4+4=8. No one ever taught me that. People taught me what 4 was and what 8 was, and by my own logic I realized two fours make an eight.

Yes, they did teach you. They taught you what all those characters mean and then they taught you how to figure out a simple mathematical equation. To say that you learned is by yourself is a complete crock of shit.

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