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Originally posted by Desiderata Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

yeah it does. READ IT AGAIN.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN don't you just fucking love americans on this topic? they cannot see what is so fucking obvious to every other fucking country.

It's obvious that you're not willing to look at all things ecompassing the issue. If it were just a matter of, "people who live within the border lines of the USA have easier access to guns, which is why they have more murder or mass shootings then people within the borders of X," then I think you need to explain why places like Brazil have to deal with murder and homocide much more often, where it is way more difficult for your average person to obtain a gun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

So, if it is just a matter of guns being easier to obtain, statistics shouldn't show Brazil having a much greater problem with them when compared to the USA. The fact is, the people who live there are worse off by not being able to defend themselves because laws don't work like magic and make problems go away. People who want to kill other people don't care about laws and will obtain their method any way they can and then carry it out against those who will be unable to defend themselves.

Let's also take a look at the UK: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_Kingdom#1997_Firearms_Act

This following link is strange. Why did gun violence go up and not down after the above law was pased?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1223193/Culture-violence-Gun-crime-goes-89-decade.html

Last edited by DOOMBOT on Dec-19-2012 at 14:19

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Originally posted by DOOMBOT It's obvious that you're not willing to look at all things ecompassing the issue. If it were just a matter of, "people who live within the border lines of the USA have easier access to guns, which is why they have more murder or mass shootings then people within the borders of X," then I think you need to explain why places like Brazil have to deal with murder and homocide much more often, where it is way more difficult for your average person to obtain a gun.

Comparing to Brazil is probably not a great comparison, as there are pretty large differences between the two countries other than just gun ownership. Maybe compare to a much more closely related country... Canada for instance has a very similar cultural background, socio-economic demographics, etc. Approximately 26% of Canadian households own a gun compared to 47% of American households. There are 30.8 guns per 100 people compared to 88.8 per 100 people in the US. Per capita homocides by firearm are 0.76 in Canada vs. 3.7 in the US. You can draw whatever you like from that data... personally, I would say that the difference is due to many factors including but not limited to distribution of wealth, ease of access to psychiatric care, social welfare services, etc; however, the ease of access to guns does play a role.

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Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard Comparing to Brazil is probably not a great comparison, as there are pretty large differences between the two countries other than just gun ownership. Maybe compare to a much more closely related country... Canada for instance has a very similar cultural background, socio-economic demographics, etc. Approximately 26% of Canadian households own a gun compared to 47% of American households. There are 30.8 guns per 100 people compared to 88.8 per 100 people in the US. Per capita homocides by firearm are 0.76 in Canada vs. 3.7 in the US. You can draw whatever you like from that data... personally, I would say that the difference is due to many factors including but not limited to distribution of wealth, ease of access to psychiatric care, social welfare services, etc; however, the ease of access to guns does play a role.

And like you say, you really can draw whatever you like from the data. In the end, we could sit here all day and cherry pick different numbers and statistics in effort to make our points, which is why I prefer to go back to the earlier points I was trying to make, which is that no matter where in the world these types of incidents happen, more often then not, they happen in places in which the maniac knows chances are low that there will be armed people there that would be able to stop him or her.

In addition, the point you made about Brazil not being a great comparison should also hold true no matter what two countries one would choose to compare. I personally believe that it isn't even a fair assessment when comparing different states, considering how different many can be from one another. Not to mention, each state has its own gun laws even right down to the local level within the state. So you can see that the Country A vs Country B comparison can prove to be futile, like you bring up.

Last edited by DOOMBOT on Dec-19-2012 at 15:22

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Originally posted by DOOMBOT And like you say, you really can draw whatever you like from the data. In the end, we could sit here all day and cherry pick different numbers and statistics in effort to make our points, which is why I prefer to go back to the earlier points I was trying to make, which is that no matter where in the world these types of incidents happen, more often then not, they happen in places in which the maniac knows chances are low that there will be armed people there that would be able to stop him or her.

Indeed they do happen in many places; however, they are far more prevelant in the US. In addition, as I said earlier, limiting the access to fire arms helps reduce the magnitude of these mass killings, as it is much more difficult to stab a large number of people to death than it is to shoot them. Guns are neither the problem nor the solution but they are undoubtedly an exacerbating factor with regard to the severity of these incidents.

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Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

if americans were allowed to own nukes theyd be arguing about how nukes dont blow up cities, that people do and that city should have nukes of its own to protect itself from crazy people with nukes.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard limiting the access to fire arms helps reduce the magnitude of these mass killings, as it is much more difficult to stab a large number of people to death than it is to shoot them.

If you are going to make a claim like that, you're going to have to explain why they still happen in places that have greater limitations then those places that have less. I would say in this instance, comparing a country like Brazil to the USA is fair. The burden of proof is on you; personally I think the claim that you made is incorrect and doesn't address the real problem at all.

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Originally posted by DOOMBOT You can have any law under the sun in effort to restrict people from owning them and all it is going to do is make them a much easier target for those who are able to obtain them without going through the legal process.

YOU ARE THE LAUGHING STOCK OF THE ENTIRE PLANET. I HOPE U UNDERSTAND THAT.

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Originally posted by Adamo YOU ARE THE LAUGHING STOCK OF THE ENTIRE PLANET. I HOPE U UNDERSTAND THAT.

What's your point?

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Originally posted by DOOMBOT If you are going to make a claim like that, you're going to have to explain why they still happen in places that have greater limitations then those places that have less. I would say in this instance, comparing a country like Brazil to the USA is fair. The burden of proof is on you; personally I think the claim that you made is incorrect and doesn't address the real problem at all.

No offense to Lira, but in terms of industrialized nations Brazil is still pretty far off from being placed on the same level as the US, and especially places in most of western and northern Europe.

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Originally posted by Joss Weatherby No offense to Lira, but in terms of industrialized nations Brazil is still pretty far off from being placed on the same level as the US, and especially places in most of western and northern Europe.

What does industry have to do with this? I've been to Brazil multiple times and fail to see the connection that you are trying to make between their industry and gun violence.