I wouldn't put so much faith (lol) into physics.

edit Just to clarify before all the physics nerds bust a vain that in no way am I trying to put down the field of physics since it is something that I find extremely fascinating (and mind-boggling) but just because "physics" can't explain something doesn't mean it's false. You can't with any certainty whatsoever say that our current day models explain everything through and through.

Last edited by infinity HiGH on Jan-31-2009 at 06:31

quote:

Originally posted by DJ_Elyot Well, you're basically telling me that there is no way to scientifically justify a belief that these types of events are real. In other words, we can only "believe" them based on anecdotal evidence, which is often going to be wrong (whether or not the people performing the exorcism think it is real). To me, this does not constitute "belief". It is "faith", which means believing something without evidence. And this is precisely what I am so against. See scientific skepticism.

I'd supporter your position, if you can prove to me that science is infallible, and has answers to all possible natural or in this case, supernatural phenomenons

___________________
Latest mix: Yohan - Full Spectrum (Fall 14 promo)
Like my stuff? Join my FB group here!

quote:

Originally posted by chinamon not true. i say "ugh" but i am a tranny.

quote:

Originally posted by kotsy lol colour me retarded

quote:

Originally posted by infinity HiGH I wouldn't put so much faith (lol) into physics.

There is a fundamental difference at work here. I can go to a lab and test physics myself. I can do the experiments and convince myself that the laws of physics hold. This is not faith. This is observation and inductive reasoning, which form the cornerstone of all scientific investigation. Science is not faith. Science allows us to conclude things based on evidence, where concluding things based on faith, by definition, means accepting them as true WITHOUT evidence.

___________________
I am nobody. Nobody is perfect. Therefore I am perfect.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ_Elyot There is a fundamental difference at work here. I can go to a lab and test physics myself. I can do the experiments and convince myself that the laws of physics hold. This is not faith. This is observation and inductive reasoning, which form the cornerstone of all scientific investigation. Science is not faith. Science allows us to conclude things based on evidence, where concluding things based on faith, by definition, means accepting them as true WITHOUT evidence.

well, your position is that human perception is not credible enough source of evidence, but supernatural phenomenon has no other way to present evidence of its existence

kind of a hard sell, if you ask me

edit: elyot, if you were to observe one of these exorcisms or 'miracles' first hand, what would you think?

___________________
Latest mix: Yohan - Full Spectrum (Fall 14 promo)
Like my stuff? Join my FB group here!

quote:

Originally posted by chinamon not true. i say "ugh" but i am a tranny.

quote:

Originally posted by kotsy lol colour me retarded

quote:

Originally posted by DJ_Elyot There is a fundamental difference at work here. I can go to a lab and test physics myself. I can do the experiments and convince myself that the laws of physics hold. This is not faith. This is observation and inductive reasoning, which form the cornerstone of all scientific investigation. Science is not faith. Science allows us to conclude things based on evidence, where concluding things based on faith, by definition, means accepting them as true WITHOUT evidence.

So all the scientific fact as we know it is, and always has been, absolute? What we know today as truth and fact, has always been the same truth and fact? Will always be the same truth and fact?

quote:

Originally posted by Yohan I'd supporter your position, if you can prove to me that science is infallible, and has answers to all possible natural or in this case, supernatural phenomenons

The general argument that most people give in response to this is that science is the most pragmatic approach to the acquisition of "knowledge", whatever one defines that as. Specifically, science allows us to *make predictions* about the outcomes of future experiments. I can use the principles of science to calculate how strong the steel needs to be in order to build a tower. GPS wouldn't work without compensating for effects that can only be predicted by Einstein's theory of relativity. Quantum mechanics lets us build transistors and quantum computers.

Science is the best possible tool we have for acquiring knowledge that can be used to make decisions. Faith makes no useful predictions.

___________________
I am nobody. Nobody is perfect. Therefore I am perfect.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ_Elyot The general argument that most people give in response to this is that science is the most pragmatic approach to the acquisition of "knowledge", whatever one defines that as. Specifically, science allows us to *make predictions* about the outcomes of future experiments. I can use the principles of science to calculate how strong the steel needs to be in order to build a tower. GPS wouldn't work without compensating for effects that can only be predicted by Einstein's theory of relativity. Quantum mechanics lets us build transistors and quantum computers. Science is the best possible tool we have for acquiring knowledge that can be used to make decisions. Faith makes no useful predictions.

not acceptable enough

if you're going to use science to disprove faith or supernaturals, science must be infallible, or else it's no better than someone using faith to disprove science
science has to be THE ultimate authority, and cannot be challenge

___________________
Latest mix: Yohan - Full Spectrum (Fall 14 promo)
Like my stuff? Join my FB group here!

quote:

Originally posted by chinamon not true. i say "ugh" but i am a tranny.

quote:

Originally posted by kotsy lol colour me retarded

quote:

Originally posted by jennypie So all the scientific fact as we know it is, and always has been, absolute? What we know today as truth and fact, has always been the same truth and fact? Will always be the same truth and fact?

You're attacking a straw man here. I never claimed this. By *inductive reasoning*, as I mentioned, one can assume that if one throws a ball into the air 100 times and sees it fall each time, then one can assume with reasonable confidence that it will fall when thrown for the 101st time. But science is constantly changing and updating its models when experiments disagree with what current models predict. We've had this time and time again, with newton and einstein and quantum mechanics and so on... that's the beauty of science. When the experiment disagrees with the model, we update the model. Religion does know such thing. When people discover million year old dinosaur bones that disagree with the biblical explanation of creation, religious fanatics make up ridiculous excuses like "they were put their by god to test your faith" or "your carbon dating is flawed". Religion changes the explanation to support the model. Science changes the model to agree with the observations.

___________________
I am nobody. Nobody is perfect. Therefore I am perfect.

How convenient.

quote:

Originally posted by Yohan not acceptable enough if you're going to use science to disprove faith or supernaturals, science must be infallible, or else it's no better than someone using faith to disprove science science has to be THE ultimate authority, and cannot be challenge

Oh come on dude, that is a stupid thing to say.

Science is just best guess. Science does abide by the laws of logic, so it does not come out and say something is a 100, either positive or negative--we work on probability--we test against our standards.

I already mentioned this very clearly:

quote:

Originally posted by evil_cookie Science does not need to be portrayed as an amoral, apathetic, or sometime cynical point of view; on the contrary, science takes great delight in attempting to answer intricate questions of life, and takes even more delight in hypothesizing what we have yet to unravel. It is a roller coaster ride--sometimes you're right, and sometimes you're wrong; science is always in a state of flux, scientists exult when they are proven wrong by other scientists, because that's all more motivation for them to work harder. In short, science is the study of the world, of life, of the unknown--and I much rather take pleasure in not knowing certain things, but rather having the confidence, that as we advance, we'll get a little closer to the answers; as opposed to having all supposed answers provided in holy scripture--doesn't leave much room for the imagination does it...

When you say stupid shit like what jennypie is saying above--all that nonsense of absolute truth--it shows that you do not understand how the scientific method works. Which actually I am positive about now, she sounds like an idiot trying to play with words--on the other hand, you're smarter than that Yohan, I shouldn't be hearing these sorts of remarks from you.

quote:

Originally posted by Yohan not acceptable enough if you're going to use science to disprove faith or supernaturals, science must be infallible, or else it's no better than someone using faith to disprove science science has to be THE ultimate authority, and cannot be challenge

I'm not using science to "disprove" faith. One can never disprove the existence of invisible pink unicorns using science or otherwise. Science gives us good evidence that we can use to make predictions and therefore make decisions. The point is not to learn the "absolute" truth about anything, because the "absolute" truth doesn't even exist.

My point is that if science tells you to grow tomatoes because they will grow well in your climate and soil type, but your holy book tells you to grow petunias because your deity, upon seeing fields of petunias, will cause grilled steaks to rain from the sky, then you should believe science, because at the end of the day, science will feed more people.

___________________
I am nobody. Nobody is perfect. Therefore I am perfect.