Great post Jason...I'd like to add some of my own thoughts to yours.

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Originally posted by Jason Jollins Unfortunately, there is a lot of confusion amongst Electronic Dance Music fans worldwide who think that dj'ing and production is one in the same. And there is a very big difference between a person who produces music and one who actually dj's.

I see what you are saying here, but I'm not totally sure that is the case. I think EDM fans definitely do know the difference between someone who produces a track and someone who djs. But sometimes the person they associate with the song is a different person than the one that wrote it, and often times they would rather see and follow the artist/dj that is more associated with the song. Whether it be buying tickets to a big trance jock show to see them play their favorite song that is written by a bedroom producer, seeing a live show like Deadmau5 where they showcase their own productions in a live set, or buying their favorite producers records which are actually ghost produced by someone else. People honestly don't care, they just want to see or buy the figure that is most associated with the music they love and share that experience with the people that are also into it.

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Originally posted by Jason Jollins It's almost impossible (especially in today's age) to break through as a dj alone. Unless one of the top dj's take you under there wing and bring you up, the only real option to become globally known is through producing (making) great tracks. In turn, what you have are the worlds best producers touring the world as dj's, while the worlds best dj's are playing in there bedroom or in there local pub.

I agree with you here. I think there is definitely something to be said for the resident DJs that have been busting their asses for years learning how to run the room, playing extended sets, and taking people on that oh so forgotten journey...but this changed when the scene became oversaturated with DJs. Herein lies the weakness inevitable downfall of the art of DJing: its exceptionally easy to learn how to beatmatch and play established hits, thus everyone learns and does. Set times became shorter in order to fit the increased supply of DJs on the bill. Nowadays when anyone plays longer than 3 hours, its considered an "Extended Set". HA.

So now you can see how its hard for those amazing bedroom DJs to get noticed, and its because you cannot piss downwind without hitting a DJ these days.

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Originally posted by Jason Jollins Now with programs like Ableton live, you see a lot of great producers who have never toured as dj's before now touring. The reason for this is because Ableton allows artists to put together a pre-programmed set (if they choose to). Because of this, you have "some" producers showing up to there shows with a laptop and a preprogrammed set where they just press the play button in ableton and pretend that they are actually doing something. And this is not a diss on Ableton DJ's because there are some who do great things with the program (DJ Sasha for example).

I don't think Ableton is the problem here at all, actually, i think its more the fault of the fact that its actually really easy to learn how to play records. I think performing with ableton requires exponentially more knowledge, patience, and creativity. I am just not seeing our favorite producers touring using ableton, I'm seeing them playing CDs or Serato much more.

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Originally posted by Jason Jollins I feel that the art of dj'ing is dying. The reason for this is because there is no real way to compare dj's on a global scale.

I feel it is dying too, but I think its more the fact that the mechanics of DJing are so easy to learn that it has totally oversaturated the market to where any competition is nearly pointless. The paradigm of what we know as "DJing" is shifting, its becoming more live music manipulation and personalization of music via ableton, and the music that will be released for this will be more like fragmented ideas and stripped down grooves, DJ tools, etc...this is where I envision a new renaissance in the live performance of EDM. BUT I think the great bedroom/local DJs that learned how to properly program a "journey" of a set can apply that knowledge to the new paradigm of perfomance and have the competitive edge. There will always be something to be said about that fine balance between educating and entertaining a crowd that only with years of experience djing in clubs can you learn.

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Originally posted by Jason Jollins But there are also so many great dj's in the world that are completely unknown, and unfortunately will never be known. And the reason why they will never be known is because they either aren't connected to the right people, they didn't make a big impact through dj'ing when being a great dj is all that was needed to become known, or they simply don't produce music.

Like I hinted at before, this is in fact sad and unfortunate, but it is the inevitable downfall of DJing caused by the simple mechanics and techniques required to play records.

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Originally posted by Jason Jollins To mention Deadmau5 again (who I can only assume will respond to what I am saying being that he does post here often), he is a perfect example of a great Producer who many EDM fans confuse with being a great DJ. After producing some great tracks, he was immediately voted into the 11th spot in last years DJ Mag top 100 DJ's list.

lots of other live acts were also voted into the Top 100. and more enter every year. The paradigm is shifting and people are ok with live acts as opposed to DJs.

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Originally posted by Jason Jollins In a recent but not so recent interview Deadmau5 said the following: �It puts me to fucking sleep to be quite honest, I don�t really see the technical merit in playing two songs at the same speed together and it bores me to fucking tears and hopefully with all due respect to the dj type that will fucking go the way of the dinosaur id like them to dis-a-fucking-pear. To say you become this massive up on a podium performer by playing other peoples productions at the same speed as someone else�s productions and fading between the two of them, I don�t get it.�

Although he's already made a public response to this quote and has said it was a joke and he wasn't serious...I think there is always a hint of truth in statements like these and it shows both his ignorance and his brilliance. Let me explain:

Jason, you and I both know what its like to witness an amazing 12+ hour Danny Tenaglia set (or some great lengendary set comparable), we also know what its like to run a room and the amount of concentrate and experience it takes to do so...but this guy probably hasnt had that experience before he became no longer a fan, but a performer. There is an art to DJing that you and I know about, but some people have been turned away from it because of the oversaturation. In this sense, he is ignorant. There must be something special about DJing if so many people love seeing their favorite DJs.

Yet, he is also brilliant with this statement, because it shows his blatant disregard for DJ culture, instead perferring to bypass it altogether bringing the music directly to his fans and letting the DJs follow him. This works, and it works awesome. The normal paradigm of ladder climbing that you and I are used to is promoing tracks to DJs, trying to impress them enough to play our tracks, and hopefully garnering a fanbase through their already established fans. Instead Deadmau5 saw this early on when the big guys were playing his stuff, gave them all the finger, went the route of big EDM bands like Telefon Tel Aviv, Boards of Canada, M83, etc and became directly connected to his fans... and fans he has... lots of them... no denying that.

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Originally posted by Jason Jollins I do however see a problem with a Producer performing as a DJ and trying to push the EDM scene if they do not know how to compose a professional DJ set. By doing so they are only being selfish and they are hurting the art of this music as a whole on a global level.

I kind of agree with you here, but you can't really blame an artist for wanting to perform his art for his fans.

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Originally posted by Blake_Jarrell I kind of agree with you here, but you can't really blame an artist for wanting to perform his art for his fans.

The way I see it is that the DJs are measured by their productions and not actual DJ skills.
I dont mind though, I think the most important quality of a DJ is the tracks he play.

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Originally posted by madliquid Do you guys not know how to read discogs credit section correctly? Written by means lyrics not produced by. Get the fuck out of this thread.

lol damn right.

As soon as one pulls Ferry into this conversation, you know the people who mention him have to be full of shit. Ferry is one of the best, well known, and legitimately accepted producers of all time..... and if you are even mentioning his name in this context, you clearly shouldnt even be posting here.



Some of the things mentioned in this thread make me question whether some of the posters know anything about this topic at all. Statements like "I have heard from a good source" doesnt mean jack shit, especially in this industry. Are you in the studio with them? Probably not.


I would suggest that, before you go WRITING DOWN people's names on a public forum, and therefore calling that DJ's reputation into dispute, that you get your FACTS. Because right now, very few posters have written anything legit: most have written about heresay, rumors, and false reading of credits.


I am sure there are plenty of DJ's out there who have people produce shit for them and/or co-produce with them and there is nothing wrong with that, as long as credit is given. BUT, unless you specifically (read: rumors aside) know who these people are, I would suggest not posting here. Because some people do work exremely hard at producing and dont deserve to have their name brought up in a rumor thread. The fact that Ferry was even mentioned in this convo tells me that few of you actually know the "specifics."


in other words, until you have something factual and concrete to say, I would suggest you STFU.

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Last edited by yankeeBaby on Jun-25-2009 at 01:30

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Originally posted by yankeeBaby lol damn right. As soon as one pulls Ferry into this conversation, you know the people who mention him have to be full of shit. Ferry is one of the best, well known, and legitimately accepted producers of all time..... and if you are even mentioning his name in this context, you clearly shouldnt even be posting here. Some of the things mentioned in this thread make me question whether some of the posters know anything about this topic at all. Statements like "I have heard from a good source" doesnt mean jack shit, especially in this industry. Are you in the studio with them? Probably not. I would suggest that, before you go WRITING DOWN people's names on a public forum, and therefore calling that DJ's reputation into dispute, that you get your FACTS. Because right now, very few posters have written anything legit: most have written about heresay, rumors, and false reading of credits. I am sure there are plenty of DJ's out there who have people produce shit for them and/or co-produce with them and there is nothing wrong with that, as long as credit is given. BUT, unless you specifically (read: rumors aside) know who these people are, I would suggest not posting here. Because some people do work exremely hard at producing and dont deserve to have their name brought up in a rumor thread. The fact that Ferry was even mentioned in this convo tells me that few of you actually know the "specifics." in other words, until you have something factual and concrete to say, I would suggest you STFU.

Subtle, who brought that up, said he was being sarcastic in a later post. I don't think anyone else questioned whether Ferry actually produces except Subtle sarcastically.

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Originally posted by PGGuy Subtle, who brought that up, said he was being sarcastic in a later post. I don't think anyone else questioned whether Ferry actually produces except Subtle sarcastically.

I wasnt talking to anyone specifically. I was referring to the fact that this whole thread is nonsense, because I havent seen very many factual statements here. And until I do, this thread is just pure spam. (and spam in the worst way, because SOME readers out there are naive and take in information like children.....they read shit and they automatically take it as truth. A lot of newbs may read this and go "OMG OAKENFOLD IS A FAKEEEEEEE!!!!" or whatever.......) thats why threads like this need to be a little more careful about WHAT and HOW things are being said. Just my 2 cents.

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Originally posted by yankeeBaby I wasnt talking to anyone specifically. I was referring to the fact that this whole thread is nonsense, because I havent seen very many factual statements here. And until I do, this thread is just pure spam. (and spam in the worst way, because SOME readers out there are naive and take in information like children.....they read shit and they automatically take it as truth. A lot of newbs may read this and go "OMG OAKENFOLD IS A FAKEEEEEEE!!!!" or whatever.......) thats why threads like this need to be a little more careful about WHAT and HOW things are being said. Just my 2 cents.

You did mention that someone brought up Ferry not producing his own tracks, and that was Subtle sarcastically. As for Oakenfold, he does DJ, that is a fact. But there are questions as to whether he produces the tracks that he puts his name on as the producer of. It could come down to the semantics of what a producer means to the individual. Does hiring a team to produce your remixes for you make you a producer? Does hiring a producer to produce your "original" material make you a producer? It is up to how one defines "producer".

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Originally posted by PGGuy As for Oakenfold, he does DJ, that is a fact. But there are questions as to whether he produces the tracks that he puts his name on as the producer of. It could come down to the semantics of what a producer means to the individual. Does hiring a team to produce your remixes for you make you a producer? Does hiring a producer to produce your "original" material make you a producer? It is up to how one defines "producer".

Oakenfold has an engineer who helps him get his idea into life, claiming he doesnt know how to produce is just ridiculous.. all the people you have mentioned (Armin, Tiesto, Oakenfold) they have countless of tracks that doesnt even have their name to it. i.e different aliases.

This is where your little myth gets busted, if you cant or dont produce music, hires an engineer to do everything for you, it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to then hide behind a different name.

This PROOVES that those producers does KNOW how to produce, and yeah maybe they do less work the bigger name they have.. they are still heavily enough involved in the projects.

What is wrong with that? the DJ is most often the mastermind behind the tracks they make cause they are the ones who are going to play the records and have their name stuck to it.

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Originally posted by PGGuy You did mention that someone brought up Ferry not producing his own tracks, and that was Subtle sarcastically. As for Oakenfold, he does DJ, that is a fact.

yes I did, but I was merely using those as examples of why this thread is ludacris. When Ferry's name in particular, got brought up, I was officially over it, because I didnt want (newbs/niave/less musically educated people) to read this and make assumptions. (not that there is anything wrong with being less informed, however when you have little information, one often aborbs any information it gets like a sponge.)

my rant was simply based on the fact that, until this thread starts inserting some factual information, rather than hearsay, rumors, "questions", etc.....that it is completely worthless and even harmful to a producers supposed reputation. Those who actually spend hours perfecting track after track are not going to be very happy to hear that their "work" is being questioned.

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look what big mike did, dragged half of NYTA into this

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Originally posted by Subtle Oakenfold has an engineer who helps him get his idea into life, claiming he doesnt know how to produce is just ridiculous.. all the people you have mentioned (Armin, Tiesto, Oakenfold) they have countless of tracks that doesnt even have their name to it. i.e different aliases. This is where your little myth gets busted, if you cant or dont produce music, hires an engineer to do everything for you, it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to then hide behind a different name. This PROOVES that those producers does KNOW how to produce, and yeah maybe they do less work the bigger name they have.. they are still heavily enough involved in the projects. What is wrong with that? the DJ is most often the mastermind behind the tracks they make cause they are the ones who are going to play the records and have their name stuck to it.

Subtle..do you know Paul Oakenfold? Have you worked with him? I have a very close friend who has worked with him several times, and my information is from him.

PROOVES? What PROOVES? You have made one of the worst arguments I have ever heard. lol