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Originally posted by Seventil Anyway, about the proof of Moses... So long as modern science hasn't yet discovered archaeological clear proof of Moses' complete historicity, for instance, real scientists, instead of smugly proclaiming therefore that Moses never existed, should instead be pressing the virulently anti-Israel modern Arab countries where such proof would most likely be found to stop obstructing every effort to find it! Thoughts?

i agree with that. i mean it sucks that we can't go over into the middle east and do historical research. i would've loved to do that...i'd be feaking indiana jones in that bitch!! there is still so much to learn hehe...

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Originally posted by Seventil He committed suicide. The puddle of water is from the block of ice he was standing on. ------------ Anyway, about the proof of Moses... So long as modern science hasn't yet discovered archaeological clear proof of Moses' complete historicity, for instance, real scientists, instead of smugly proclaiming therefore that Moses never existed, should instead be pressing the virulently anti-Israel modern Arab countries where such proof would most likely be found to stop obstructing every effort to find it! Thoughts?

Yeah, but you would think that such a large amount of people or such an amazing leader would of left some sort of archelogical evidence of their existence. I mean thats not some small feat or small task to have ventured that far, and for so long...But the fact still remains that NONE has been found, and its not like archaeologist have never been to the middle east to go around digging.

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Originally posted by ShadoWolf arn't you getting ready for the two hurricanes set to hit?

no hurricane watches/warnings for dade or broward county. this sucks. i told my boss he better let us have tomorrow off, he's not buying it. lol i told him it'll be his fault if i die in a car crash driving in the rain to go to work and he said, "good, leave me in your will".... i was like, "yea, if you paid me more money i might have something to leave you".

___________________

My soliloquy may be hard for some to swallow, but so is cod liver oil.

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Originally posted by notelfreak man i can't believe i tried to come off as responsible in that other thread, i am so full of shit just don't tell anyone

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Originally posted by Rodrico Yeah, but you would think that such a large amount of people or such an amazing leader would of left some sort of archelogical evidence of their existence. I mean thats not some small feat or small task to have ventured that far, and for so long...But the fact still remains that NONE has been found, and its not like archaeologist have never been to the middle east to go around digging.

Mosaic Law might not be archeological evidence, but it counts in my book.

Archeological evidence that directly proves Moses's existance will be extremely hard to find - ruins of cities are built upon, deterioration, looting of artifacts - anything short of the Ark of the Covenant probably won't satisfy many people.

You say prove that he existed; I say - prove that he didn't. Because as it stands, there is more proof that he did exist (documented in the Bible AND other sources) than he didn't.

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Originally posted by Seventil Mosaic Law might not be archeological evidence, but it counts in my book. Archeological evidence that directly proves Moses's existance will be extremely hard to find - ruins of cities are built upon, deterioration, looting of artifacts - anything short of the Ark of the Covenant probably won't satisfy many people. You say prove that he existed; I say - prove that he didn't. Because as it stands, there is more proof that he did exist (documented in the Bible AND other sources) than he didn't.

Im sorry...in real science, one cannot use a lack of evidence as a proof of evidence, thats not how things work here. No, its not impossible that for such a great man like Moses to leave evidence of his past and his "adventure" since it was such a great undertaking, by you using the bible as evidence, I might as well believe that Frodo took the ring to Mt.Doom about several thousand years ago too, well since it was written? right?

Actually the story of Moses and the flight of the enslaved jews, was most likely taken upon by another civilization that were enslaved by the Egyptians. The bible is a constant taking of different peoples myths and urban legends, and inscribed as a book of morals for a religion. None of it is really hard fact. Same with Jesus...while Jesus is proven to actually have lived, they believe that all his stories are just a combination of many different prophets at the time who said and did the same things as him. One prophet especially who did everything he did, as well as was tried by the roman court, died by crucifixition, then was raised from the dead 3 days later....man, this shit must of happened alot back in the day, eh?

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Originally posted by stk more gays and lesbians

hell no. not more, they're just coming out of the closet cos the perception is they're more accepted these days... that's why we hear of more gay bashing too these days as well.

>JM<

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Originally posted by Rodrico Im sorry...in real science, one cannot use a lack of evidence as a proof of evidence, thats not how things work here. No, its not impossible that for such a great man like Moses to leave evidence of his past and his "adventure" since it was such a great undertaking, by you using the bible as evidence, I might as well believe that Frodo took the ring to Mt.Doom about several thousand years ago too, well since it was written? right? Actually the story of Moses and the flight of the enslaved jews, was most likely taken upon by another civilization that were enslaved by the Egyptians. The bible is a constant taking of different peoples myths and urban legends, and inscribed as a book of morals for a religion. None of it is really hard fact. Same with Jesus...while Jesus is proven to actually have lived, they believe that all his stories are just a combination of many different prophets at the time who said and did the same things as him. One prophet especially who did everything he did, as well as was tried by the roman court, died by crucifixition, then was raised from the dead 3 days later....man, this shit must of happened alot back in the day, eh?

You went too far! First you question the existance of Moses - now you're saying Frodo didn't exist? Heathen! I've been to Mt. Doom (what's left of it), and I have a summer house in Rivendale.

Seriously though - you're skewing your "facts" to a non-religious point of view. Sure, you can *say* the Bible took things from other cultures and just rewrote them - but you're also *trying* to disprove the validity of the Bible. Convienent perspective. Any argument that the Bible stole stories from other cultures is pure speculation. In fact, it's more likely (statistically AND scientifically) that other cultures took stories from the Bible and made them their own, since the widespread distribution of the Bible.

Anyway, back your allegations up with proof, if you have them.

And yes, I agree that proving a negative isn't a good argument. However, I must question your motives for believing someone didn't exist or that something isn't true to begin with. You can play Devil's Advocate with religious matters all day.

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Originally posted by Orbax Being an atheistic, anti-american, unpatriotic, government hating hippy with tats, piercings, and pseudo intellectual spew about religion causing wars and governments reducing freedom. To be someone who doesnt "need" anybody and to treat eachother like crap. To spend your time watching television instead of trying to suck every last breath you can while you are on this amazing earth. To play games, pretend not to be interested, to work less for more money. To know the price of everything, yet the value of nothing. To be as uncompromising as possible. If someone disagrees with you hey, we all have our opinions, instead of sticking to your guns until proven otherwise. No confrontations. No moralism. No Objectivism. To TAKE offense, instead of actually BEING offended. To defend homosexuality, consumerism, and multi-culturalism whole heartedly and passing off anyone who might have a problem with the ACTION and playing games by saying they hate "gays" or "blacks" and making it personal instead of realizing they might just might be talkin about the culture or the social ramifications. To take that which is sacred and desecrate it. To bring down ideals, high hopes, and try to ground them into "reality". Hedonism, plagiarism, and debauchery. To go through life putting in as LITTLE AS YOU POSSIBLY CAN and still get as much as you can from others. To have friends, not be one. To be unavailable. To piss and moan instead of doing something. Compassion vs caring eg, you feel reallllly bad about an issue, but youve never done a friggin thing about it in your life, yet you tote yourself as some kind of savior? To mock saviors. To pass your self-centeredness and weakness onto others, and judge them so critically that you eventually feel good about yourself. Take others down instead of rising up. pot, lesbians, and rap. I have more, but you probably get the point.

Excellent! Agrees 100%!

Cheers

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Originally posted by Rodrico Yeah, but you would think that such a large amount of people or such an amazing leader would of left some sort of archelogical evidence of their existence. I mean thats not some small feat or small task to have ventured that far, and for so long...But the fact still remains that NONE has been found, and its not like archaeologist have never been to the middle east to go around digging.

go to the library and rent the movie "the search for mount sinai"

it follows moses' path into Saudi Arabia. These two guys forged documents and pretended they had the Kings persmission to be there. They found caves, and a place the locals called "Mt Moses"

Its crazy. They had to find where "the sea parted" at low tide there isa land bridge to saudi arabia. No one really knows about it it took them a long time in an airplane to find.

They found the spring, the 40 springs with palms. They found the burial place, the found the mt. It was fenced off and patrolled by saudi government. It was penalty by death to go. They put on night vision and went there.

They found a huge altar that was built. It had Egyptian graffiti scrawled on it (egypt was pursuing them if you recall).

They found the split rock. They found enough swords to tell this is where they turned around and fought the armies of egypt.

The entire top of the mountain looked like it had been melted. It was granite. (god coming down). they found the spot where he talked to God.

They found a small grove of the wood that was used to build the arc of the covenent.

they found another altar with 13 pillars. (tribes of israel.)

They guys who did it are a little pompous, but it is still amazing.

Dont say there isnt any proof.

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Originally posted by Rodrico One prophet especially who did everything he did, as well as was tried by the roman court, died by crucifixition, then was raised from the dead 3 days later....man, this shit must of happened alot back in the day, eh?

Read "the case for Christ" if you want an account of the Crucifixion. It was well-documented by the Romans, and the manner in which it happened leaves little to go. The man who wrote it was an atheist lawyer. He decided to prove once and for all Christ could not have been resurrected. His researh converted him because he realized that he had to have been.

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Originally posted by Seventil Seriously though - you're skewing your "facts" to a non-religious point of view. Sure, you can *say* the Bible took things from other cultures and just rewrote them - but you're also *trying* to disprove the validity of the Bible. Convienent perspective. Any argument that the Bible stole stories from other cultures is pure speculation. In fact, it's more likely (statistically AND scientifically) that other cultures took stories from the Bible and made them their own, since the widespread distribution of the Bible.

So...Im skewing my facts into a non-religious point of view, as opposed to skewing my facts into a religious point of view? Im sorry but what view am I suppose to take? ofcourse im non-religious when I talk about science and fact, because science and fact show that the stories in the bible cant be proved. And when you start believing in things that cant be proved, you are essentially a "tool". The bible is not to be taken literally, its a metaphor for daily living. Even then, some of the shit in there is just wrong for nowadays.

No, its not convienent at all, its the truth, take a look at Noah's Ark, now do you believe in that? Because if you do, thats just silly. First its impossible to do what Noah did. Secondly in the region, there were several civilizations that had stories of floods that were simliar to Noah's Ark story, why? because the area has had a history of floods and one particular flood destroyed most of the houses, cities and killed many people. One story in particular about when one of these big floods came, that a King had built a large boat that supported him, and the royal family, including a large amount of their riches, as well as food to survive the flood itself. Could be a case of broken telephone, or it could be that Noah exsisted like the bible says, and managed to do something that is ridiculously impossible.

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Anyway, back your allegations up with proof, if you have them.

Great, make me work to find you links, that you wont even read or care for. If you want, I can search later tonight when I have time to do this crap, and I am sure I can find you lots of interseting sites.

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And yes, I agree that proving a negative isn't a good argument. However, I must question your motives for believing someone didn't exist or that something isn't true to begin with. You can play Devil's Advocate with religious matters all day.

My motives? what motives does real fact and science have to do with disproving a bunch of fairy tale stories that cant be proven otherwise? Like I said, its all Mother Goose fairy tales bullshit that is put to give mankind faith and understanding the question "Why?". Not that it makes it wrong at all, I mean, Religion can be very good too, but dont pass it off as fact, when its only fiction.

I despise the fact that religious supporters hide behind the "well you cant disprove it, so it must be true" reasoning. What ever happened to just having faith in God and being a good person, for the sake of being a good person. And not to take a literal word for word of what a bunch of men wrote a millenium and a half ago. Whatever I said here, is either been on TV or read somewhere, and I am merely paraphrasing what I saw and took in, not because I enjoy bashing the validity of the bible, but because I like to know what is real fact, and I love to make a good argument...it just happens to be were talkin bout religion.

Short and Sweet:

-The government should stay out of the bedroom

-Religious fundamentalism the world over is a dangerous and oppressive trend

-In a pluralistic society, we should strive to protect the rights of the minority and protect civil liberties as much as possible

gays:

"Marriage" is a religious institution to be left to various faiths.

If a Fundie church doesn't want to perfrom gay weddings that's fine, and if another church does, then fine.

For government benefits, gay and straight couples should enter into "civil unions."

Whatever it's called, it's the benefits that really matter, and we shouldn’t get bogged down in semantics.


abortion:

Criminalizing abortion is tantamount to the state forcing a woman to bring a child to term.

I'm against abortion after viability except for health reasons however.

Last edited by DaveSZ on Aug-12-2004 at 18:02