quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley I'm sorry but I think I have. I have tabled the accusations against Chavez and given you my take on them. Yet you never address those points. Instead you repeat the accusations as if that is somehow an argument against what I said. Let's take the media for example: Step 1: Firestarter accuses Chavez of media censorship for shutting RCTV down Step 2: Smiley says RCTV has not been shit down because it is still broadcastind Step 3: Firestarter goes back to step 1

So let me get this argument straight.
Because they're on the internet like every other 9 yr old with a webcam they're 'broadcasting'.

And it's not 'Firestarter accuses' btw...every group and country sees it for what it truly is so singling me out doesn't change anything...

[edit]
And please, please use some actual facts in your argument...

quote:

On December 28, 2006, President Chávez announced that the government would not renew RCTV's broadcast license which came up for renewal on May 27, 2007, thereby forcing the channel to cease broadcast operations on that day.

>>Source<<

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

I posted the SAME source a few posts back!

quote:

Return to the airwaves via cable or satellite RCTV may have lost its free-over the air signal, but it is not out of business. In an article in the July 5, 2007 edition of AM New York, the head of RCTV, Marcel Granier said that he's considering taking the network's programming to cable or satellite. As of July 9, 2007, that has been accomplished. DirecTV Latin America and RCTV signed an agreement for the satellite service to transmit RCTV's programming to satellite subscribers in Venezuela and other parts of the world. The network will be broadcasting for DirectTV in the channel 103. Later came the deals with other national cable operators, Inter, formerly known as InterCable, and NetUno, both being the most important and known cable operators in Venezuela. The channel number will depend of the zone and region of the country for the cable operators. The broadcasting will officially begin in the three operators on July 16 at 6:00am(UTC-4). However, Mr. Granier also stated that the network's priority is still to return to viewers as a regular channel on the open airway. After its return, RCTV is the most watched channel in Venezuela despite being on cable. Only 30% of houses have cable in Venezuela but the total amount that view RCTV is higher than all viewers of TVES, Venevision, and all other channels. In Caracas and in Valencia twice as many people view RCTV than Venevision. [95][verification needed] In July 2007 RCTV Went back on the open airway through an "International" Signal from which they have regained normal transmission.

[edit: don't worry, I fully expect you to ignore this again for the umpteenth time...]

Last edited by George Smiley on Sep-09-2007 at 18:35

I just found out that Hugo Chavez tried to change their oil currency from the dollar to the euro. The very next year, there was a coup attempt, apparently backed by the CIA. No wonder Hugo is so pissed off!!

America's military ventures are to protect the OIL DOLLAR!! The world needs to reject the dollar for their oil, only then will this unsustainable Roman Empire that is the American Empire will fall. We can't sustain a inflating dollar forever off international use of our currency. Because eventually, the world will reject our dollar for a better currency. The American elite are hell-bent on protecting the status quo. Expect more propaganda wars against Hugo, Iran, Iraq, Syria, and any other country that wants to take another currency other than the dollar for oil or trade.

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley I posted the SAME source a few posts back! [edit: don't worry, I fully expect you to ignore this again for the umpteenth time...]

Thats ok, maybe next you'll read that last line somewhere in that umpteenth time and ponder why it is they had to it...

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Thats ok, maybe next you'll read that last line somewhere in that umpteenth time and ponder why it is they had to it...

Eh? You said that RCTV has been shut down - that is quite clearly not true, why the fuck can you not just admit that? I get proved wrong on stuff on here all the time and guess what? My life goes on as normal!

RCTV hasn't been shut down..but come on smiley...If Bush decided to "revoke the license" of CBS, ABC, or NBC, you would have an absolute shit fit and consider it a fascist move.

For God's sake...IT IS NOW A CRIME TO BE CRITICAL OF THE GOVERNMENT. Did you not read the earlier sources in this thread? People who criticize the Chavez regime on television are now subject to heavy fines and jail time.

End of the fucking debate.

quote:

Originally posted by Capitalizt RCTV hasn't been shut down..but come on smiley...If Bush decided to "revoke the license" of CBS, ABC, or NBC because they were being critical of him, you would have an absolute shit fit.

But if Chavez was revoking licences because TV Stations were being critical of him why is it only RCTV that lost their licence and not any of the other anti-Chavez stations?

Also, your comparison with America is flawed due to the fact that in America RCTV would not have had their licence revoked they would all be in jail (death penalty?) for treason.

The reason Chavez did not renew RCTV's channel 2 frequency licence (please note, the only ruling was that RCTV could not broadcast on this one frequency) is because it is the frequency that can reach more houses than any other frequency and the government wanted that frequency for their own public TV Station. Unfortunately for RCTV the decision to renew licences is the right of the government...

The official line is "democratising" the media, because prior to RCTV the opposition pretty much dominated all the media. With the removal of RCTV the split was roughly 50/50 altho now RCTV is back on the air and the most watched TV Station in Venezuela again the opposition's share of the media has probably increased by a hell of a lot...

quote:

Originally posted by Capitalizt For God's sake...IT IS NOW A CRIME TO BE CRITICAL OF THE GOVERNMENT. Did you not read the earlier sources in this thread? People who criticize the Chavez regime on television are now subject to heavy fines and jail time. End of the fucking debate.

I'm sure you can appreciate why after all the spin I have seen in the media a source saying that it is illegal for the media to "insult" or "disprespect" the government without also seeing the actual text of the law or how it has been implemented as not being entirely reliable.

There were four TV Stations that took part in the military coup of 2002. All four TV Stations are still on the air and no action was ever taken against them by the Chavez regime.

That simply does not tie into this story about criminalising "criticism" of the government, which the opposition do via the media everyday in Venezuela, to a much much greater extent than any Western media company is critical of its own government...

Can you see it doesn't quite make sense? Especially considering all the other untruths peddled by the media in Venezuela and further afiedl

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Point 1: In any other country, a media company that staged a military coup would be shut down and it's owners thrown in jail for treason

Let's take a look at what RCTV actually did:

quote:

On April 9, 2002, the Confederación de Trabajadores de Venezuela—the country's largest trade-union federation—called for a two-day strike in support of the recently fired executives and managers of Petróleos de Venezuela (PDVSA)—Venezuela's state-owned oil company. Fedecámaras—the Venezuelan Federation of Chambers of Commerce—joined the strike/lockout and called on its affiliated member businesses to shut 48 hours. The opposition general strike was covered externsively by the privately-owned news media. During this time, the government used its powers under article 192 of the telecommunications law to requisition all radio and TV stations to broadcast numerous speeches by President Chávez, other government officials, and other programming favorable to the government. To sidestep this requirement, the television channels began to broadcast their own news at the same time as the government addresses by splitting their screens.[37][38][39] On April 11, 2002, after three days of demonstrations, anti-Chávez and pro-Chávez demonstrators clashed at the Miraflores Palace. The government ordered the suspension of broadcasting by the privately-owned TV channels Televén, Venevisión, Globovisión and RCTV at around 4 p.m., shortly after they refused to carry a speech by President Chávez exclusively and used split screens to broadcast live pictures the opposition demonstration being broken up at the same time as the president’s speech. Only the state-owned Venezolana de Televisión was allowed to continue broadcasting.[37][39][40] After several shooting deaths, elements of the Armed Forces deposed President Hugo Chávez, whom they held responsible.[41][42] Commander of the Army, Lucas Rincón Romero, reported in a nationwide broadcast that Chávez had resigned his presidency,[41] a charge Chávez would later deny. Chávez was taken to a military base while Fedecámaras president Pedro Carmona was appointed as the transitional President of Venezuela.[41][43] RCTV reported these actions as a victory for democracy and conducted friendly interviews with leaders of the movement.[citation needed] Footage from the Irish documentary The Revolution Will Not Be Televised appeared to show a coup leader thanking RCTV and Venevisión for their assistance, calling the media "[our] secret weapon". Subsequently the new government rapidly unraveled, after Carmona issued a decree that established a transitional government, dissolving the National Assembly and the Supreme Court, and suspending several Chávez appointees. While his own coalition wavered, large sectors of the armed forces moved into the Chávez camp, linked up with a mass popular uprising from the barrios, and restored Chávez to office.[citation needed] RCTV declined to report any of these events, preferring to broadcast reruns of Looney Tunes and the film Pretty Woman .[citation needed] According to the Chicago Tribune, RCTV and other broadcasters supported the failed coup "by directing marchers and then failing to inform the public that the coup had failed".[44] Chávez was restored to power on April 13, 2002. Over the following months, and again in the wake of the 2002 lock-out and general strike, he stepped up his criticism of the country's private media companies, accusing them of having supported the coup. On his weekly television program Aló Presidente and in other forums, he regularly referred to the leading private media owners as "coup plotters", "fascists", and "the four horsemen of the apocalypse".[45] He reminded them that their concessions operated at the pleasure of the state and that if they "went too far", their concessions could be canceled at any time.[46] Independent observers concur RCTV participated in and supported the coup of April 11, 2002.[47][1] RCTV encouraged pro-coup protests, celebrated when Chávez was temporarily removed from power, and broadcast false reports that Chávez had renounced his presidency.[47] In addition, when Chávez returned to power, RCTV did not report the news but rather broadcast entertainment programs such as the movie Pretty Woman. According to RCTV, their decision not to transmit the images of riots taking place all over Caracas was in order not to entice more deaths and destruction in Venezuela.[47][this source's reliability may need verification]

Hmmm right so this was Soooo much more inglorious than Chavez's actions to "control" or practice "hegemony" over the media! Right you are!

quote:

Point 2: I asked how Chavez "controlled" or extended "hegemony" over the media because that is simply a lie. Before RCTV was taken off channel 2 the media was pretty much controlled by the opposition. Now it is a bout 50/50

Yea ... 50/50 ... how did you arrive at that completely scientific figure? Did you even read what I quoted from the bbc and reuters??? Are you justifying that behaviour and denouncing criticism from the EU? This is the 3rd or 4th time I've asked this question can you respond please?

quote:

I started this thread on the media in Venezuela, strangely neither you, Shakka or Firestarter contributed to it. Funny that considering your strong views on the subject: http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...light=venezuela

I don't follow TA 24/7. If there are points that you made in that thread that you don't feel are appropriately conveyed here (and I did read it, I just didn't see anything prominant) I implore you to point them out again and I will respond.

___________________
Retro ...

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Let's take a look at what RCTV actually did: Hmmm right so this was Soooo much more inglorious than Chavez's actions to "control" or practice "hegemony" over the media! Right you are!

Erm is this sarcasm? Are you agreeing with me? From the quote you posted of me, I was asking what would happen to a media company in America that did this:

quote:

Independent observers concur RCTV participated in and supported the coup of April 11, 2002.[47][1] RCTV encouraged pro-coup protests, celebrated when Chávez was temporarily removed from power, and broadcast false reports that Chávez had renounced his presidency.[47] In addition, when Chávez returned to power, RCTV did not report the news but rather broadcast entertainment programs such as the movie Pretty Woman. According to RCTV, their decision not to transmit the images of riots taking place all over Caracas was in order not to entice more deaths and destruction in Venezuela

quote:

Yea ... 50/50 ... how did you arrive at that completely scientific figure?

The "50/50" figure is explained in my thread about the media in Venezuela (tho this is either arrived before or after RCTV began broadcasting on cable, so if after, the figure would be back in favour of the opposition)

quote:

Did you even read what I quoted from the bbc and reuters???

Yes and I replied. You highlighted these two events:

quote:

1999 - Chavez forces private radio and TV stations to broadcast his hours-long speeches, blocking regular programming with political announcements or political commentary. 2001 - Chavez warns media following reports of military corruption, telling news channel Globovision "I should remind you that I could revoke that concession at any moment."

For the 1999 event I'd need more information to see whether this was on public (government controlled) TV, or whether it was on private companies like RCTV (because the events of the 2002 coup would suggest the private media companies couldn't be forced to broadcast anything the government want). As for the 2001 event - that is entirely true. The government can revoke the licence of a media company at its dicression. And I think that criminal activity certainly warrants that (especially treason)

However, I also highlighted two of those events you seem to have overlooked (and you never responded to it):

quote:

April 2002 - TV stations back opposition efforts to oust Chavez through a bungled coup, then turned their cameras off when his supporters' protests help return him to power. December 2002 - Private media joined a two-month strike meant to force Chavez from office. TV stations suspended regular programming to show anti-Chavez marches and propaganda.

Any comments?

The second Reuters article was just the RCTV story, which I think we can put to bed now we all have accepted that it was never shut down, but just made to broadcast via a different media (which the government has every right to do)

quote:

Are you justifying that behaviour and denouncing criticism from the EU? This is the 3rd or 4th time I've asked this question can you respond please?

It's the same criticism of the decision not to renew RCTV's licence as made by everyone else from here to the media to the American government. I have said time and time again that this criticism is unfounded because it is based on the false assumption that RCTV was shut down and made illegal - clearly not the case as it is currently the most popular and most watched TV station in Vevezuela!

quote:

I don't follow TA 24/7. If there are points that you made in that thread that you don't feel are appropriately conveyed here (and I did read it, I just didn't see anything prominant) I implore you to point them out again and I will respond.

The reason I started that thread was to remove one of the accusations against Chavez from this thread to analyse it individually so the points were not lost amongst all the other accusations. Unfortunately, nobody who accused Chavez of media censorship made any comment on what I thought were interesting nuggets of information on the media in Venezuela that dispite what people think, is dominated by the opposition...

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Eh? You said that RCTV has been shut down - that is quite clearly not true, why the fuck can you not just admit that? I get proved wrong on stuff on here all the time and guess what? My life goes on as normal!

Yes, as a broadcast entity; stop splitting hairs here, you know what was meant.

And broadcasting on the internet like a 9 yr old with their webcam isn't a traditional 'broadcast', it's a new medium sure, but it's not broadcasting in the sense that's be conveyed in this argument.
Believe me, I work for one...

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."