Christ almighty you're either doing this on purpose or you're incredibly dense (I suspect it's the former but...)

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley CABLE AND SATELLITE

AND WHY DO YOU SUPPOSE THEY HAD TO DO THAT??

am I talking to myself here?

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"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

Also, maybe you care to explain to the class why Venezuela's [then] largest national broadcast station wasn't on the air-waves for a month and a half after being refused their license AND why their central administration is now in Miami, Florida...

I say [then] because they've been stripped of their 'national broadcast' status the day they were revoked...

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Erm is this sarcasm? Are you agreeing with me? From the quote you posted of me, I was asking what would happen to a media company in America that did this:

Yes and I was being sarcastic. And guess what, whatever the reaction by America OR THE EU it wouldn't be this:

quote:

1999 - Chavez forces private radio and TV stations to broadcast his hours-long speeches, blocking regular programming with political announcements or political commentary. 2001 - Chavez warns media following reports of military corruption, telling news channel Globovision "I should remind you that I could revoke that concession at any moment." . . . But, dependent on the government for advertising revenue, major private stations have changed their editorial line to favor a president whose brief ouster they had openly supported in 2002. . . . Chavez, 52, granted other channels an extension but changed their contracts so that their licenses come up for renewal again a few months before he faces re-election in 2012. The one Venezuelan station that avoids self-censorship and remains staunchly opposed to Chavez is only seen in limited areas across the South American nation of Amazon jungle, Andean mountains and Caribbean coastline. Chavez, who rules by decree, has publicly warned the station he will close it if he deems it has gone too far.

Or do you think that these actions are something that the EU would do and is wholly justifiable?

quote:

The "50/50" figure is explained in my thread about the media in Venezuela (tho this is either arrived before or after RCTV began broadcasting on cable, so if after, the figure would be back in favour of the opposition)

Give me the 50/50 breakdown. There's an equal number of pro-Chavez stations as anti-Chavez stations?

quote:

Yes and I replied. You highlighted these two events: For the 1999 event I'd need more information to see whether this was on public (government controlled) TV, or whether it was on private companies like RCTV (because the events of the 2002 coup would suggest the private media companies couldn't be forced to broadcast anything the government want). As for the 2001 event - that is entirely true. The government can revoke the licence of a media company at its dicression. And I think that criminal activity certainly warrants that (especially treason) However, I also highlighted two of those events you seem to have overlooked (and you never responded to it): Any comments?

Yes I highlighted far more than that.

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The second Reuters article was just the RCTV story, which I think we can put to bed now we all have accepted that it was never shut down, but just made to broadcast via a different media (which the government has every right to do)

Ummm no please read it again. Particularly ALL the parts I bolded.

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It's the same criticism of the decision not to renew RCTV's licence as made by everyone else from here to the media to the American government. I have said time and time again that this criticism is unfounded because it is based on the false assumption that RCTV was shut down and made illegal - clearly not the case as it is currently the most popular and most watched TV station in Vevezuela!

ARE THE EU'S CRITICISMS UNFOUNDED AND COMPLETELY BASELESS?? How many times do I have to ask this question?

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The reason I started that thread was to remove one of the accusations against Chavez from this thread to analyse it individually so the points were not lost amongst all the other accusations. Unfortunately, nobody who accused Chavez of media censorship made any comment on what I thought were interesting nuggets of information on the media in Venezuela that dispite what people think, is dominated by the opposition...

Chavez has done more to manipulate and control the media than RCTV alone. Is that not clear to you?

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Retro ...

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r AND WHY DO YOU SUPPOSE THEY HAD TO DO THAT?? am I talking to myself here?

Because the government did not renew their licence to boradcast on the channel 2 frequency, am I talking to myself here?!

Firestarter - you claimed RCTV had been shut down, for fucks sake just be a man and admit that that's not true

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Yes and I was being sarcastic. And guess what, whatever the reaction by America OR THE EU it wouldn't be this:

If CNN staged a military coup, arrested President Bush for several hours, and were then caught out, the head of CNN would be in the electric chair...

quote:

Give me the 50/50 breakdown. There's an equal number of pro-Chavez stations as anti-Chavez stations?

Like I said, I already did in the media thread (which you guys don't seem to have the stomach for, preferring instead your circular arguments)

quote:

As with most questions about Venezuela, there is almost complete disagreement about what Venezuela’s media landscape looks like. According to the opposition, Chavez already controls most of the broadcast media, either directly, though state ownership or sponsorship, or indirectly, via supposedly repressive media laws. According to Chavez supporters, though, the opposition controls 95% of all media. .......... Given the political positions and the relative audience shares of the different media outlets, we can divide Venezuela’s media landscape into three categories of opposition, neutral or balanced, and pro-government. Before RCTV’s demise it looked as follows: Opposition: 50-55% RCTV: 35-40% Globovisión: 10% Private local: 5% Neutral or balanced: 30-40% Venevisión: 20-25% Televen: 10-15% Pro-government: 20-25% VTV: 15-20% Other (Telesur, Vive, Community): 5% Now, in the post-RCTV era there is indeed a significant shift, so that the media landscape could look as follows, if, as promised, TVes (RCTV’s replacement) does not become a pro-government channel, but is neutral. Opposition: 15% Globovisión: 10% Private Local: 5% Neutral/balanced: 30-40% or more Venevisión: 20-25% Televen: 10-15% TVes: ??% Pro-government: 20-25% VTV: 15-20% Other: 5% .......... However, there are three unknowns that could change the ratio in favor of the opposition. First, those who used to watch RCTV might very well watch more Globovisión, thus increasing their share of the audience. Second, Venevisión could very well become more oppositional, now that many opposition supporters are looking for a new home. There are already first indications that this will happen, according to a recent news report in the weekly newspaper Quinto Dia.[5] And third, many lovers of RCTV who want to continue watching it but did not have cable access, might, if they can afford it, switch to cable to watch RCTV. Thus, if Globovisión’s audience share increases, if Venevisión moves back into the oppositional column, and if RCTV continues to attract a large audience on cable,[6] then the opposition to pro-government balance in the Television media could easily swing to at last 1:1. .......... In any case, RCTV and the opposition have once again bungled the political situation. Instead of challenging Chavez in the political arena, they focused exclusively on legal challenges, international appeals, and confrontation. They could have organized a consultative (non-binding) referendum back in January, right after it was clear that Chavez would not renew RCTV’s license. Polls indicated that the up to 70% of Venezuelans did not want RCTV to go off the air. With only 10% of registered voters’ signatures the Electoral Council would have been forced to convoke a referendum on the issue. If the polls are accurate, the opposition would have won that referendum easily, thereby embarrassing Chavez and perhaps forcing him to renew RCTV’s license. Maybe this course of action did not occur to anyone in the opposition, but more likely is that they prefer to challenge Chavez in the legal and international arenas and on the streets than politically because actions that use Venezuela’s democratic processes would legitimate a political system that the opposition continuously decries as a dictatorship and whose ultimate goal it is to de-legitimate. http://www.zmag.org/content/showart...fm?ItemID=12986

Now that RCTV is back on the airwaves, altho their share of the market will have been reduced due to being on cable, the media landscape will now be more like the first breakdown. It's roughly equal between the anti-Chavez and pro-Chavez (tho that depends how popular the pro-Chavez channels are, which don't have the fancy soap operas of the opposition!!)

quote:

Yes I highlighted far more than that.

So no comments about the two events I highlighted, interesting...

quote:

Ummm no please read it again. Particularly ALL the parts I bolded.

I have responded to the bold parts. If there's something else you want me to comment on you're gonna have to explain exactly what you want...

quote:

ARE THE EU'S CRITICISMS UNFOUNDED AND COMPLETELY BASELESS?? How many times do I have to ask this question?

How many fucking times do you want me to answer it!? Yes, I said in my post before, I even fucking say "I have said time and time again that this criticism is unfounded" WHICH PART OF THAT ARE YOU HAVING DIFFICULTY UNDERSTANDING?!!?!?!?

quote:

Chavez has done more to manipulate and control the media than RCTV alone. Is that not clear to you?

Oh, well in that case I'll take your word for it. I mean, who am I to question what you say, it's not like every post you have written in this thread has been wrong or complete media fabrication is it? I believe you 100%

quote:

If CNN staged a military coup, arrested President Bush for several hours, and were then caught out, the head of CNN would be in the electric chair...

Ummm so RCTV STAGED the coup as opposed to endorsed it huh? Might want to get your facts straight.

quote:

Like I said, I already did in the media thread (which you guys don't seem to have the stomach for, preferring instead your circular arguments)

What circular arguments did I make? Point them out to me? Heh so let me try to understand the statistics you’re referencing.. So according to you, the pre/post chavez actions resulted in the following actions:

Pre Chavez:

Opposition Networks 50-55%
Neutral stations were 30-40%
Pro-Government 20-25%

Post Chavez:

Opposition Networks 15%
Neutral media 30-40%
Pro-Government 20-25%

Learn some goddamn math . And the stipulation from that site was that RCTV’s replacement would not be a government channel …. Hey it was a government channel.

quote:

So no comments about the two events I highlighted, interesting...

Yea the media was anti-government. What’s new? Are Chavez’s response legitimate if it were the US, the US, etc???

quote:

I have responded to the bold parts. If there's something else you want me to comment on you're gonna have to explain exactly what you want...

You accept every part that I bolded? You think that all those actions are legitimate? Really? Heh?

quote:

How many fucking times do you want me to answer it!? Yes, I said in my post before, I even fucking say "I have said time and time again that this criticism is unfounded" WHICH PART OF THAT ARE YOU HAVING DIFFICULTY UNDERSTANDING?!!?!?!?

Pardon me. Perhaps I missed the part where you said that the Eus criticism is unfounded. I apologize for that. Can you point out the exact post where you said this?

quote:

Oh, well in that case I'll take your word for it. I mean, who am I to question what you say, it's not like every post you have written in this thread has been wrong or complete media fabrication is it? I believe you 100%

Are you willing to justify everything that Chavez has done that I posted? I could care less whether you think I’m fabricating shit. I know I post from credible sources. Don’t try to be coy or cute… if you’re disputing something I say than actually do it rather than fuck around the bush.

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Retro ...

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Because the government did not renew their licence to boradcast on the channel 2 frequency, am I talking to myself here?! Firestarter - you claimed RCTV had been shut down, for fucks sake just be a man and admit that that's not true

They WERE shut down; for a MONTH AND A HALF.
What part of that sentence don't you understand?

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Are you willing to justify everything that Chavez has done that I posted?

He does with me and everyone else on this subject...

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

3000+ people have viewed this thread, and they all got to see a proud socialist (smiley) vigorously defend this piece-of-shit tinpot dictator in Venezuela..

As far as I'm concerned, george is doing the forces of capitalism a huge favor. Please let him continue

As bad I think socialism is, the US should just accept what's happening in Venezuela as a reaction to the circumstances that they face, which is poverty and curruption. If the Venezuelans really didn't want Hugo and wanted a multi-party system, then they would have done something about. Take up arms or something. They havn't.

The UN Charter garentees... Each state has the right to freely choose and develop its own political, social, economic, and cultural systems.

If they want Hugo, then they're getting Hugo. Doesn't matter what we think, or what the US thinks or anything else. This is what the Venezuelans want. Now whether they know the implications or not of what they have chosen has yet to be known. But I don't see anyone taking up arms against Hugo. If they want to return to democracy, then they'll do it themselves, they'll either fight for it, or by some other means. We can't force it on them like we're doing to Iraq. Freedom isn't given, it's fought for. In every totalitarian state, the people themselves have to fight for their freedom, it can't be handed to them on a silver platter.

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