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Originally posted by PETRAN Eh, what for me its cool nothing special. Now post an old Tejada track. I love Fluxion. He has some very subliminal stuff. Like drone techno. But damn they don't have his best tracks in Youtube. Fluxion- Bipolar Defect http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7ZeTTA3gY8 (This is almost ambient techno. Very atmospheric listen in full volume) Also the legendary Gas. He is really the best minimal techno producer ever IMO. very artistic nothign to do with this overblown Villalobos hipster crap (well Villalobos used to be much better in the past like the track you posted). http://www.discogs.com/artist/Gas

yes, I love both voigt and fluxion. i was thrilled with nah und fern was released. also I think m. von schommer is excellent. his 'würfel' is one of my favorite dub-infused techno tracks. this is really good too:

http://www.discogs.com/Von-Schommer-dc15/release/87014

also glad you mentioned old tejada. that is definitely some emotional techno

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Originally posted by nefardec also glad you mentioned old tejada. that is definitely some emotional techno

This probably doesn't qualify as "old" per se, but Technasia - Evergreen (John Tejada Remix) =

Edit: Also, Sideshow - Scary Biscuits (John Tejada Remix), which I actually just bust out again on New Years at about 7AM.

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Originally posted by nefardec when you say happy you must mean 'euphoric'? i can think of plenty of blippity bloop tracks (which is what i assume you mean when you say minimal) that are fun and bring a smile to one's face. Most of that stuff is ironic and silly and probably the only thing it can do is make you chuckle but don't dis 'minimal' so easily. true minimal techno is pretty powerful and emotionally diverse stuff, and definitely not the sound you imagine. if you can ever listen to this mix, do it: http://www.boomkat.com/item.cfm?id=150286 you might actually think some of that stuff is rather trancey

I'll give it a go, but I've had a bunch of people try to get me into it over the past 2 years, and I have always given it a chance, but it just does nothing for me.

I accept that no-one will like everything, it's just how we are. It's just minimal and tech-house stops even registering in my brain after a while, and I'd rather listen to some of the pop music (gah!) that I like at the moment.

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Originally posted by kr00t0n I'll give it a go, but I've had a bunch of people try to get me into it over the past 2 years, and I have always given it a chance, but it just does nothing for me. I accept that no-one will like everything, it's just how we are. It's just minimal and tech-house stops even registering in my brain after a while, and I'd rather listen to some of the pop music (gah!) that I like at the moment.

well i think it's generally good practice to give everything a go, but if you've tried and don't like it then at least you know. this probably wouldn't do anything for you either.

plus the only way you're gonna get that mix i posted is on discogs




interesting fact: i have a twin brother who listens to all of this epic trance from about 1998-2004. i always give him my productions and dj sets and show him what i'm into, and he's pretty open minded, but he always goes back to this trance sound. i can't hate anyone who likes this stuff, and i dont, since I used to like it as well, but what i do dislike is close-mindedness. after all, it is open-mindedness that probably led most of us to trance in the first-place.

Last edited by nefardec on Jan-12-2009 at 14:32

Peter Grummich - Weiter <- good minimal
http://www.trackitdown.net/genre/te...ack/126188.html

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Originally posted by PETRAN I know the stuff you post man, i used to make dj sets with such Theorem tracks in 2001, im not new to the genre lol (and theorem have some excellent tracks, this is very nice thanks for posting). Its still not substantial. I'm not comparing minimal to trance or whatever, but if you try to objectively view "minimal techno" as an independent fom of music, like view it out of of an EDM-context or trance or house or whatever, its just poor.

"Poor" as in simple and repetitive?
Heck yes, that's what it is.
The simplicity does not matter that much, but it's repetitiveness just makes it an occasional listening experience.
I like more change in music and emotional connection to it, which i do not have for this kind of techno.

I can listen to most unicorn laden trance fluff for hours and hours on, because i've grown accustomed to it and often just listen to it for the drive it gives in order to work better.

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Originally posted by PETRAN It is nice as a form of hypnotic, deep and entrancing sound but it is still poor, simple as that. By being poor, it means that it has some inherent constraints, it is limited in where it can lead you-emotionally talking at least. You are not going to feel sad, or happy, or agonised, or angry, or anything more emotionally complex while listening to a minimal techno track. It is logical, because minimal techno is minimal techno, it is devoid of melodies or a substantial musical structure. It doesn't have musical variation, it is linear and repeatetive. It doesn't have peeks and lows, surprises or novelty. And this is exactly what it is supoosed to be. Repeatetive and simple. In order to feel hypnotised, entranced, maybe you'll get those mystical "highs" due to its very nature. It is still a form of simple dance music though, it will always be.

For others this music is the best there is, for me not.
I don't bash their choice.

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Originally posted by PETRAN Now ofcourse if you like something a lot, you may automatically feel overwhelmed by it. So, in your techno-loving world you may find god on a daily basis within those minimal techno tracks and this is a normal reaction for someone who has a "passion" about something, be it a form of art, an activity or a person

I have less passion for trance than most here for their favourite genres, because it's just music, not a lifestyle.
Even though i do like good trance really much.

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Originally posted by PETRAN (and pecause you seem to be a man of passion, just leave those armin fanboys alone would you? )

Which Armin fanboys?
Not me at least.

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Originally posted by nefardec well i think it's generally good practice to give everything a go, but if you've tried and don't like it then at least you know. this probably wouldn't do anything for you either. plus the only way you're gonna get that mix i posted is on discogs

I tried most other music, but it's just not my thing, so i always come back to trance.

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Originally posted by nefardec interesting fact: i have a twin brother who listens to all of this epic trance from about 1998-2004. i always give him my productions and dj sets and show him what i'm into, and he's pretty open minded, but he always goes back to this trance sound. i can't hate anyone who likes this stuff, and i dont, since I used to like it as well, but what i do dislike is close-mindedness. after all, it is open-mindedness that probably led most of us to trance in the first-place.

Are you saying your brother is closedminded because he keeps going back to what he likes most?
If so then that is a sign of true closedmindedness, not giving people the room to like what they like even though they tried various things.

One thing best done is to be open to new things and if one likes the new thing then to accept it and if not then to leave it.
In all of this thread and other threads i have not bashed genres other than sub-genres in trance.
There's much i do not like outside of trance, but because i do not listen to it, i'm better off keeping my mouth shut and only opening it to condemn trance that i find lacking.

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Originally posted by nefardec Look, I agree about single tracks, but right now I am talking about a set. When I listen to BC tracks on their own it is nice to listen to but it is not inherently an emotional experience. The emotional experience is in the DJ set, the story told with the tracks. This was the understanding of techno music from the beginning. I admit that I do get off listening to the tracks by themselves and that is mainly because as a DJ I can imagine how they could fit into a set or suggest diretions. And I didn't post the theorem track for you, but for everyone lol I think basically agree with you when you say 'poor' but just so we're clear, what defines 'poor' and what defines 'rich' with regard to emotional content? Is not the degree relative to the experience/conditioning of the beholder? This is what I meant when I said one has to be 'within' the genre.

And what is "the story told" from a set of minimal techno tracks? The point is in telling no story thats what the music is trying to convey. That you just get lost within a semi-empty maelstrom of drones, low-frequency lines and weird simple off-key nocturnal riffs. Its not like that you gonna progress from laidback prog to prog-house, to more intense prog-house, then to trance and finally to tech-trance-and i don't think that i like this story! This music's point is not in telling a story, it is the exact opposite of it.


(There used to be a site that had many of these mixes called "Betoni". Here

http://www.adapteri.com/betoni/

unfortunately i don't think it still works which is a pity really. It had some very nice deep/dub techno mixes)



You can say "rich" and "poor" in emotional content is subjective and it surely is, but only UP to a certain point IMO. As i told you before, one would end-up feeling all sorts of things if he/she experiences a passion, even when this passion entails the weirdest of things. Hell, some people collect post-cards and i guess they do it because they feel some kind of emotions during this activity, although they seem pretty weird to me!





BUT there are some semi-objective criteria IMO, in music at least. When i say "poor" and "rich" in emotions i mean the number and type of emotions one would feel whilst listening to a track. Now i don't know if there is a study, but i bet that there is a strong corellation between the number and type of felt emotions and a track's musical complexity, with the more musical a track is, the higher the emotional spectrum one would experience-but only up to a certain point (which varies by many factors such as age or education). After a certain degree of complexity, the music demands higher attentional and memory spans,a higher cognitive effort and hence it gets progressively more difficult to listen to-let alone-experience something.



Thats probably why "classical" and "jazz" are listened by the minority, because they require more effort than pop. ofourse, it could also mean that whoever pays more "attention/effort" could possibly get awarded with more varied and rich emotions. It could also go the other way around, with less musical complexity-less emotional complexity.



So, chances are that you may feel overhelmed by a minimal-techno track, its just that you are not going to get complex emotions by it. This doesn't mean that it is less enjoyable than an epic-classical track by Holst. The experience is different though! The key is to distinquish between type of experience and enjoyment. One could feel a complex emotion but of low intensity, another one could feel a simple single emotion of very high intensity (and hence experience more enjoyment). This is why one could get more enjoyment by a minimal techno track in comparison to a composition by Holst. The pay-off between effort and enjoyment in minimal is small, meaning that you don't need to use a lot of effort in order to understand the music. Now if you happen to like the musical qualities of the sound/music the award is enormous. Less effort-high enjoyment. In classical you need a much higher degree of effort that no everyone is willing to pay. If effort gets too high for someone, then the negative consequences of it are higher then the possible enjoyment. But there are drawbacks due to this variation in complexity. In minimal techno you can get high enjoyment, but the felt emotional complexity would be relatively poor. In contrast, if the high attentional resources that classical requires are met, then enjoyment and felt emotional complexity would both be high.



Now these are just some of my thoughts that i developed during the last years. I don't knwo if someone has tested them anyway lol. This area of experimental psychological aesthetics is very interesting and i don't think that there is a lot of bibliography about it. Anyway these are just my thoughts.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec interesting fact: i have a twin brother who listens to all of this epic trance from about 1998-2004. i always give him my productions and dj sets and show him what i'm into, and he's pretty open minded, but he always goes back to this trance sound.

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Originally posted by PETRAN Anyway these are just my thoughts.

they're interesting thoughts and valuable to this forum.

i laughed when i saw the betoni site because there is a mix from a local there - eric cloutier - he does a monthly under my old apartment.

i think i understand your definition of rich and poor better now, basically equivalent to comparing the timbre of a violin with that of a tuining fork...

(i wonder if in the future we'll be able to measure the emotional spectrum of music?)


I guess we can talk about color and intensity of the emotional spectrum. For whatever reason I am seduced by the purity of this emotional signal. Maybe it has to do with my worldview, which you could call monistic. I don't know. We can also talk about the idea of 'mantra' and of concentration for heightened awareness and the induction of the ecstatic state (aka religious experience). I would say that listening to such music is like a bright white light, while listening to holst is the light broken by a prism into many colors. Some people think rainbows (and thus unicorns by default ) are nice, and some people like the purity of light and shadow.

But i never eat my cheeseburgers with pickles, tomatoes, or onions.

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Originally posted by Barachem Are you saying your brother is closedminded because he keeps going back to what he likes most? If so then that is a sign of true closedmindedness, not giving people the room to like what they like even though they tried various things.

No, barachem. My brother is very open-minded, and i don't hate him lol. I dont force anything on him or judge him for his taste. When I'm in his car we listen to Ferry Corsten and Paul Oakenfold.

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Originally posted by nefardec But i never eat my cheeseburgers with pickles, tomatoes, or onions.

You should just order a beef patty alone. Now that's minimal!