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Originally posted by Sushipunk I hear what you're saying, and maybe you're right. But it just seems like kids are growing up waaaay more fucked up than they were when I was their age. Perhaps it's just like Hal's quote, that I keep seeing in System-J's sig. Along the lines of "The world isn't getting worse, only more televised".

I half regret saying that each time I see it. I'm not sure if I believe it anymore after reading it so many times. It's kind of a paradox in the first place - perhaps the world really is getting worse because it's becoming more televised.

Though I suppose if we're talking adages, I like the more things change, the more they stay the same. That doesn't ever seem to change. $.

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Originally posted by fughawzi Some personality traits are genetic, others are learned from family and society. Basically everything influences the way a child turns out.

I completely agree. I think that anyone who takes a side on the 'nature vs. nurture' debate is seriously deluding themselves.

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Originally posted by fughawzi I most likely won't have children because I don't want to pass along all the various illnesses that were passed down to me. Also, because of the chronic pain and autoimmune issues, I don't know if I could be consistently counted on to parent which isn't fair to a child.

That's rough. Sorry to hear that you'e not well, or whatever the case is. I respect that you're responsible in your thinking, regarding 'breeding' (for use of a better word :/)

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Originally posted by Sushipunk I completely agree. I think that anyone who takes a side on the 'nature vs. nurture' debate is seriously deluding themselves.

That's the thing. You really just can't take a side, once you start to look at all the different studies that have been done on it and on just about everything. There are so many things that effect how we turn out, its such a huge combination of everything in our lives (including both our genetics and our environments).

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Originally posted by Lews That's the thing. You really just can't take a side, once you start to look at all the different studies that have been done on it and on just about everything. There are so many things that effect how we turn out, its such a huge combination of everything in our lives (including both our genetics and our environments).

Totally agree after a certain point at which they start deciding for themselves, but until then, you can shape them in a way in which you give them the ability to discern what is and isn't good for them to the best fo their ability. Kids will always be kids, and do shit they probably shouldn't, but you raise a kid with the view that education is shit and you end up raising a thug.

ps: The thug thing is just one extreme.

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Originally posted by bas Dual exhaust tips on dual exhaust = QUAD EXHAUST = 300 gain in horsepower. Duh

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Originally posted by bas Undies with a dickhole aren't good for guys. Your balls can get caught in them. That's why I prefer to go over the gate instead of through the fence.

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Originally posted by Lews That's the thing. You really just can't take a side, once you start to look at all the different studies that have been done on it and on just about everything. There are so many things that effect how we turn out, its such a huge combination of everything in our lives (including both our genetics and our environments).

People do, though.

When I was finishing up my psych degree, there were still plenty of lecturers/Phds/professors that would be utterly one-sided on the debate.

That was a while ago, mind you. Perhaps, due to recent findings, everyone in the psych field has accepted the mix of theories, now. Psych isn't something that I've been involved in, since graduating

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Originally posted by Sushipunk But it just seems like kids are growing up waaaay more fucked up than they were when I was their age.

GET OFF MY LAWN!

But seriously, its hardly kids fault if they soak up a bit of surrounding crap aspects of society, after all, we made it. We obviously didn't give enough of a damn to markedly improve it before handing it over to the next generation as a better place to grow up in.

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Originally posted by Lilith GET OFF MY LAWN!

Yeah

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Originally posted by Lilith But seriously, its hardly kids fault if they soak up a bit of surrounding crap aspects of society, after all, we made it.

That was kinda my point though. There's SO MUCH crap for them to soak up now, from society.

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I worry a lot more for this coming generation and the one after it. Mine is like 2nd degree acid culture burnouts, nobody even knows enough to label themselves as lost so they just turn to amphetamines. I don't see people in the immediate future manning the fuck up (as a figure of speech) unless something cataclysmic were to happen, which it most likely will. Not sure if this one will be in humans' hands though, not anymore.

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Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

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Originally posted by Fledz Sure there are outliers but look at the general population. How many times have you and your friends wanted to do something but the values your parents and family instilled in you in the past prevented you from doing it?

They didn't really prevent me from doing anything, but the external resistance was really difficult to overcome

Bloody middle-class values...

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Originally posted by gehzumteufel the world in which you raise your child has no bearing on how you raise them.

You're right about this, but I don't see what that has to do with any of what I wrote earlier. I said the world seems like it's a bit of a shithole right now and not showing much sign of improving. I wouldn't want children of mine having to bear the burden of our present shortsightedness, wastefulness, deceit and arrogance.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J That was 200 years ago. I'm sure life was really pleasant back in the pre-industrial 18th century. No wars and razing back then, no sir.

Regardless of whether it's 100 or 200, I don't recall our forebearers of the 1800s as being in possession of nuclear arsenals with the capacity to fly over to their target of invasion in a number of hours, nor do I recall them having the technology to do near-irreparable damage to the environments of the countries whose resources they chose to exploit. With that in mind, along with skyrocketing population rates (world population was under a billion for 1800 years, yet somehow we've done that seven times over in the past 200) and documented environmental changes (desertification, toxic watersystems, et al), I'd venture it's safe to say that the playing field has changed considerably over the past couple of hundred years.

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The idea of 'manning up' so to speak is one of the things about society in the west that could use a bit of backwards engineering from societies that we sometimes consider backwards. In quite a lot of extended family and tribal systems at some point of young persons life they progress from child to adult.
It is a clearly marked event.
It is at that point a young person becomes a man or woman amongst their family and peers, given instruction on how to behave towards their family, friends, outsiders and what is expected of them when it comes to living in society.

There isn't the fuzzy adolescent part of life where people go off to find their own way as an "individual" to define themselves. Individuals don't really contribute much to a community because they've distanced themselves from normality to the point they're never accepted. Quite a lot of education I received when I was growing up focused heavily on establishing myself as an individual identity in society. That by itself is not bad, but the emphasis had very little placed on a sense of community.

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Originally posted by PivotTechno You're right about this, but I don't see what that has to do with any of what I wrote earlier. I said the world seems like it's a bit of a shithole right now and not showing much sign of improving. I wouldn't want children of mine having to bear the burden of our present shortsightedness, wastefulness, deceit and arrogance.

There was just an article (that I wish I remember where I read it) about the "great generation" and why they were great. The gist of the article said that they were great because they suffered through the depression and WWII. As a result of the stresses that they had to endure, they were very good at many things, unlike the people of today who have been through fuck all compared to them.

People need to realise, that hardship builds character and also teaches people how to deal with things. Something people now seem to sorely lack. So I would say now would be a much better time than in times of blatant excess.

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quote:

Originally posted by bas Dual exhaust tips on dual exhaust = QUAD EXHAUST = 300 gain in horsepower. Duh

quote:

Originally posted by bas Undies with a dickhole aren't good for guys. Your balls can get caught in them. That's why I prefer to go over the gate instead of through the fence.