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Originally posted by Krypton As bad I think socialism is, the US should just accept what's happening in Venezuela as a reaction to the circumstances that they face, which is poverty and curruption. If the Venezuelans really didn't want Hugo and wanted a multi-party system, then they would have done something about. Take up arms or something. They havn't. The UN Charter garentees... Each state has the right to freely choose and develop its own political, social, economic, and cultural systems. If they want Hugo, then they're getting Hugo. Doesn't matter what we think, or what the US thinks or anything else. This is what the Venezuelans want. Now whether they know the implications or not of what they have chosen has yet to be known. But I don't see anyone taking up arms against Hugo. If they want to return to democracy, then they'll do it themselves, they'll either fight for it, or by some other means. We can't force it on them like we're doing to Iraq. Freedom isn't given, it's fought for. In every totalitarian state, the people themselves have to fight for their freedom, it can't be handed to them on a silver platter.

That may all be well and good, but we can still call it what it is and recognize it as such.

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Originally posted by Shakka That may all be well and good, but we can still call it what it is and recognize it as such.

I would somewhat disagree. Though Hugo goes against our capitalist democratic norms, why should we cut off friendly relations with them? Or with Cuba? But we're good ole' buddy buddy with China. The US foreign policy hypocritical, and I'll go as far as to say there may be a hidden agenda we don't know about. We should be friendly with all country's regardless of what their political structure is, just as long as they don't violate another country's sovereignty. Friends solve problems much better than enemies. We got North Korea to end its nuclear program by being friendly to them, not saber rattling. Even though they have concentration camps, experiment on human subjects, and oppress their people to bone, threatening the country would have no changed anything. It is up to the North Koreans to decide their fate. Even if they're brainwashed, that's their decision to make.

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r They WERE shut down; for a MONTH AND A HALF. What part of that sentence don't you understand?

Ah you've changed your tune haven't you?!

You were trying to tell me that RCTV was shut down and banned a few days ago, now you've changed your mind and telling me they were only "shut down" for a month and half...

But that's not being shut down is it? That's just RCTV setting their Cable network up

RCTV has never been prevented from broadcasting, the government simply exercised a LEGITIMATE RIGHT not to renew their licence for the channel 2 frequency - you never answered my question - what gives RCTV the RIGHT to broadcast on that frequency and why is any Venezuelan government OBLIGED to renew their licence?

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Originally posted by Capitalizt 3000+ people have viewed this thread, and they all got to see a proud socialist (smiley) vigorously defend this piece-of-shit tinpot dictator in Venezuela.. As far as I'm concerned, george is doing the forces of capitalism a huge favor. Please let him continue

My point throughout is that the accusations against Chavez have, for tha most part, been media fabrications or media spin designed to cast Chavez in a certain light so that people with limited intelligence are not able to spot the lies. Maybe he is a dictator, maybe he isn't, but what I am sure of is that what you think about him has been fabricated by the Venezuelan and American right-wing media, for the sole purpose that Chavez nationalised the oil industry - posing a direct threat to corporate America...

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Originally posted by occrider Ummm so RCTV STAGED the coup as opposed to endorsed it huh? Might want to get your facts straight. What circular arguments did I make? Point them out to me? Heh so let me try to understand the statistics you’re referencing.. So according to you, the pre/post chavez actions resulted in the following actions: Pre Chavez: Opposition Networks 50-55% Neutral stations were 30-40% Pro-Government 20-25% Post Chavez: Opposition Networks 15% Neutral media 30-40% Pro-Government 20-25% Learn some goddamn math . And the stipulation from that site was that RCTV’s replacement would not be a government channel …. Hey it was a government channel. Yea the media was anti-government. What’s new? Are Chavez’s response legitimate if it were the US, the US, etc??? You accept every part that I bolded? You think that all those actions are legitimate? Really? Heh? Pardon me. Perhaps I missed the part where you said that the Eus criticism is unfounded. I apologize for that. Can you point out the exact post where you said this? Are you willing to justify everything that Chavez has done that I posted? I could care less whether you think I’m fabricating shit. I know I post from credible sources. Don’t try to be coy or cute… if you’re disputing something I say than actually do it rather than fuck around the bush.

I'm starting to lose the will to live with this thread but I shall respond to some of your points:

RCTV participated in the Coup

The media is pretty balanced according to the stats (which don't include RCTV coming back on their air)

GW Bush's response to the media coup would be to have the coup leaders executed for treason, so I would say Chavez's response of letting them all off the hook incredibly lenient

I have no idea which parts you bolded. I think I responded twice to the post so if you want me to reply again you'll have to repeat it because I'm not going back to look

The EU's criticism is unfounded

I don't justify everything Chavez has done, I just dispute most of what the media say about him, and in turn, those who believe it

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Originally posted by George Smiley My point throughout is that the accusations against Chavez have, for tha most part, been media fabrications or media spin designed to cast Chavez in a certain light so that people with limited intelligence are not able to spot the lies. Maybe he is a dictator, maybe he isn't, but what I am sure of is that what you think about him has been fabricated by the Venezuelan and American right-wing media, for the sole purpose that Chavez nationalised the oil industry - posing a direct threat to corporate America...

Preach brotha preach

This corporatocracy need to end. It is not free market economics, its capitalist imperialism. Our own brand of stateless terrorism. Reformation is inevitable.

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Originally posted by Krypton Preach brotha preach This corporatocracy need to end. It is not free market economics, its capitalist imperialism. Our own brand of stateless terrorism. Reformation is inevitable.

Serious question:

Would any of you on here slating Chavez even know where to point to Venezuela on a map were it not for the nationalisation (sorry, RE-nationalisation) of the oil industries?

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Originally posted by George Smiley

Oh, I'm referring to American protectionism of its oil interests.

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Remember when Egypt nationalized its industries in 1950's? Guess what happened? France and the UK invaded!

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Originally posted by George Smiley Ah you've changed your tune haven't you?! You were trying to tell me that RCTV was shut down and banned a few days ago, now you've changed your mind and telling me they were only "shut down" for a month and half... But that's not being shut down is it? That's just RCTV setting their Cable network up RCTV has never been prevented from broadcasting, the government simply exercised a LEGITIMATE RIGHT not to renew their licence for the channel 2 frequency - you never answered my question - what gives RCTV the RIGHT to broadcast on that frequency and why is any Venezuelan government OBLIGED to renew their licence?

I didn't change shit, you just weren't listening.

Legitimate right my ass. The only thing Chevez is legitimizing is himself.
While they might have 'had the right' you don't find it a bit odd after 50 YEARS of RCTV being Venezuela's number one channel, they suddenly need to be denied? Because they oppose the government? Please give your head a shake. Like that NEVER happens in any other country...
It's a clamp on free speech and nothing more.

And you never did answer why it is that their main administrative building is now located in Miami, Florida???
Could it be that if they know that if they remained in Venezuela, Chevez would probably arrest them (if not shoot them). Why would that be? I thought they could air in Venezuela via SATELLITE AND CABLE.
Why not remain at home?
Name me one other number one broadcaster in the world, for their country, that has their office OUTSIDE THEIR OWN COUNTRY.
Are you getting the picture yet?

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"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r I didn't change shit, you just weren't listening.

No you've claimed all along that Chavez shut RCTV down. You tried to deny that everytime I gave you evidence it was not true until you couldn't possibly deny it any further. Now to save face you trying to tell me RCTV was only shut down for 1.5 months. Even if that were true, it completely takes anything away from your argument as the fact of the matter is RCTV is broadcasting to Venezuela today. For your argument to stand, RCTV would not be broadcasting today.

But I'll humour you, are you telling me Chavez only censored the media for 1.5 months? If so, will you now admit the media is not censored?

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Legitimate right my ass. The only thing Chevez is legitimizing is himself.

Yes or no: The decision to renew broadcast licences on specific frequencies is the responsibility of the current government?

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While they might have 'had the right' you don't find it a bit odd after 50 YEARS of RCTV being Venezuela's number one channel, they suddenly need to be denied? Because they oppose the government? Please give your head a shake. Like that NEVER happens in any other country... It's a clamp on free speech and nothing more.

Here you go again, reverting to your previous accusation that RCTV has been shut down - tell me - how is allowing RCTV to broadcast in Venezuela clamping down on free speech?

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And you never did answer why it is that their main administrative building is now located in Miami, Florida???

The RCTV operation in Miami started in 1982, hardly a "relocation" is it? They still have offices in Caracas (RCTV C.A, Dolores a Puente Soublette, Qta. Crespo, Caracas, DC 1010, VE) it's just the administration (ie legal side) that is now located in Miami, so the owners can get around Venezuelan law (not the law preventing them from broadcasting before you say because no such law exists). Chavez requires tv stations to broadcast his speeches, and that is one thing I will critcise him for, RCTV understandably, don't want to do that, and think that being legally international will allow them not to do so.

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Could it be that if they know that if they remained in Venezuela, Chevez would probably arrest them (if not shoot them). Why would that be?

But they are in Venezuela. And technically, the owners should be in jail for treason - agree?

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I thought they could air in Venezuela via SATELLITE AND CABLE. Why not remain at home?

They can and they did.

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Name me one other number one broadcaster in the world, for their country, that has their office OUTSIDE THEIR OWN COUNTRY. Are you getting the picture yet?

When you say "their office" that implies the singular, which is incorrect. RCTV's main office, where their owners work and they make all their TV programs is in Caracas (Venezuela). RCTV International is based in Miami (since 1982) and they hold the legal entity of RCTV merely as a technicality.

So, what you meant to ask me was, "name me one other number one broadcaster in the world, for their country, that has AN office outside their own country"