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TranceAddict Forums > Other > Political Discussion / Debate > chaos and anarchy in Baghdad
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DrUg_Tit0
e^(i*pi)+1=0



Registered: Nov 2002
Location: Zagreb, Croatia

Heh, now that everything has been looted from the museum they're not of much use anymore.

Btw, in the meantime, the Iraqi national library cought on fire while being looted, so most of the ancient documents from it are now either stolen or burned.


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Old Post Apr-15-2003 12:44  Croatia
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surferfb
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Nov 2002
Location: Berlin, Germany

The US could have prevented it. We sent Marines in to guard the Iraqi Oil Ministy building.


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Old Post Apr-16-2003 04:13  United States
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Renegade
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Registered: May 2001
Location: Prague, Czech Republic

quote:
Originally posted by surferfb
The US could have prevented it. We sent Marines in to guard the Iraqi Oil Ministy building.


Well yes. As I understand it, it is the obligation of an occupying force to ensure that hospitals and other vital services are protected during this period, under the terms of the Geneva convention. If they're complaining that they don't have the troops to restore order for the time being, then they should have considered this eventuality beforehand. Perhaps they could have built-up forces around Baghdad to ensure that they had the numbers to protect the Iraqi civilians instead of heading straight for the ceneter for the photo-op at the first opportunity?

You're also right about the oil ministry surferfb. As I understand it, there are 37 ministries in Baghdad and it's the only one that's survived the bombing and looting. There's also plenty of protection for Iraqs oil wells, yet the US claim they're powerless to prevent the ramsacking of hospitals, vital energy facilities and museums. Erm, what was this war about again?

For more indications about the lawlessness and growing anti-US sentiment in Iraq, you may wish to read these articles:

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/co...5E25777,00.html

quote:
Witnesses reported that US troops had fired into a crowd which was becoming increasingly hostile towards the new governor in the northern oil city, Mashaan al-Juburi, as he was making a pro-US speech.

"There are perhaps 100 wounded and 10 to 12 dead," Dr Ayad al-Ramadhani said at the city hospital.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2950131.stm

quote:
In the town of Nasiriya, just three kilometres (two miles) from the entrance to the base, there has been a huge demonstration.

About 2,000 local Shia Muslims took to the streets, extremely angry, saying their voices would not be heard in the meeting.

Their representatives were not there and they believe they will not get a fair deal from this process.


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...ost_treasures_2

quote:
Looters and arsonists ransacked and gutted Iraq's National Library, leaving a smoldering shell Tuesday of precious books turned to ash and a nation's intellectual legacy gone up in smoke.


They also looted and burned Iraq's principal Islamic library nearby, home to priceless old Qurans; last week, thieves swept through the National Museum and stole or smashed treasures that chronicled this region's role as the "cradle of civilization."


"Our national heritage is lost," an angry high school teacher, Haithem Aziz, said as he stood outside the National Library's blackened hulk. "The modern Mongols, the new Mongols did that. The Americans did that. Their agents did that," he said as an explosion boomed in the distance as the war winds down.


http://www.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_art...Id=3113&lang=en

quote:
Anti-American protests intensified in the Iraqi capital and in southern Iraq Tuesday, April 15, as U.S. occupation forces struggled secure the country after toppling the regime of Saddam Hussein.
Exasperated U.S. military officials tried to hamper the media from covering new demonstrations in Baghdad while some 20,000 people in the Shiite Muslim bastion of Nasiriyah railed against a U.S.-staged meeting on Iraq's future, reported Agence France-Presse (AFP).

[...]

For the first time, visibly angered U.S. military officials sought to distance the media from the protest, moving reporters and cameras about 30 meters (yards) from the barbed-wired entrance to the hotel.
"We want you to pull back to the back of the hotel because they (the Iraqis) are only performing because the media are here," said a marine colonel who wore the name Zarcone but would not give his first name or title.
The crowd later moved to the nearby square where the statue of Saddam was toppled Wednesday to signal the end of the regime. As three of the marines' armored amphibious vehicles passed by, they chanted: "No, no, USA."
Meanwhile, demonstrators marched to the center of the predominantly Shiite southern city of Nasiriyah, chanting "Yes to freedom ... Yes to Islam ... No to America, No to Saddam."
They were protesting a meeting of Iraqi opposition groups convened at a nearby military base in an initial attempt by the United States to plot out a political future for the post-Saddam Iraq.
"We want the American and British forces to go. They have freed us from Saddam and their job is finished," said Ihsan Mohammad, an official with the regional federation of engineers.
"If they intend to occupy us, we will oppose that. We ask them to leave us free to decide our future and not to impose people on us."
Although U.S. officials have all but declared their military campaign over, tensions with the civilian population persist over a lack of police protection, water, electricity and other basic services.
Hundreds of international reporters here have also become increasingly frustrated with the lack of information on the reconstruction effort and the U.S. failure to provide other than haphazard access to public affairs officers.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Stor...,937645,00.html

quote:
Yet a week after the US occupation of Baghdad began, if you count from the contrived symbolism of the destruction of one of the many statues of Saddam Hussein in the city - the one which happens to be closest to the Palestine Hotel - there is a bitterness and tension between citizens and occupiers.

It is not just that Baghdad has been ravaged by looting, which local people feel US forces did little or nothing to prevent. There is a growing feeling that the occupiers are obsessed with protecting themselves, to the exclusion of taking risks in protecting civilians.

Most troublingly, there is a sense that US efforts to restore essential services are more about self-boosting short-term fixes, and not about helping skilled Iraqis put the city back on its feet.

It is a strange irony of the last week that the military triumph of the world's only superpower in seizing Baghdad would have degenerated into a far worse nightmare of disease and death without the efforts of the International Committee of the Red Cross before the war.

[...]

"The Americans cannot come in with their own ideas about just fixing a pipe and a generator and then saying: 'We've fixed the water and the power in Baghdad,'" Mr Jansen said. "It's getting the staff back, organising transport, paying salaries. They don't need generators and pipes. They need security and office space.

"What the Americans want to offer now is general logistical services. But when it comes to commitment and organisation, they're saying, 'We are not the administration, we are the military.'"

[...]

While the meetings have continued, so has the looting. The water and sewage authorities of Baghdad used to have 1,300 vehicles. Now they have all been stolen.

[...]

Upstairs, among the TV lights, Jim Clancy of CNN International was preparing for his next live interview. How had the networks been reporting the first week of the US occupation of Baghdad? Not a priority, he said. "If you want to go with the No 1 story of the week, it's been the freeing of those seven US prisoners of war. They're covering the funerals of US service people."


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2948121.stm

quote:
"They say they came here to liberate us. We have paid a heavy price for the removal of Saddam Hussein, so the Americans should go now."

The growing anti-American sentiment is a result not only of the military campaign and the casualties that it caused, there is also acute resentment that the Americans have allowed a situation to develop in which there is looting and continued insecurity in the Iraqi capital.

The US marines have secured a limited area, just a few blocks of buildings, in the centre of the city, but elsewhere there is great insecurity.


As I have said before - and will continue to say - the war may be over, but the real battle is just beginning.


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Old Post Apr-16-2003 04:48  Australia
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rupert
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Aug 2001
Location: bris vegas

quote:
As I have said before - and will continue to say - the war may be over, but the real battle is just beginning.


Indeed.

The civil war which is going to happen in Iraq was entirely predictable. The thing they dont say on the news is for the most part the looters are Shias and the people they loot are Sunnis.

The future will be very bleak for the people of Iraq.

Old Post Apr-16-2003 09:24  Australia
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AnotherWay83
The B00b Maintenance Guy™



Registered: Aug 2000
Location: land of d(-_-)b

not to mention the sorry state of animals in the baghdad zoo...many were simply stolen and will prolly get sold in the international market (maybe even eaten?)...but the lions and tigers are actually starving

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm..._nm/iraq_zoo_dc

just goes to prove that they have no interest in really rebuilding the country, they just want the oil


heres another link with info abt iraqis protesting the US presence

http://www.yellowtimes.org/article.php?sid=1260&mode=thread&order=0

Last edited by AnotherWay83 on Apr-18-2003 at 04:49

Old Post Apr-18-2003 04:41 
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DrUg_Tit0
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Registered: Nov 2002
Location: Zagreb, Croatia

quote:
just goes to prove that they have no interest in really rebuilding the country, they just want the oil


And the dominance of that part of the world. Seriously, no sane country in the world would ever attack another one in order to rebuild it and to make the lives of the people living there better. If such a country would exist, it would not last very long.


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Old Post Apr-18-2003 12:52  Croatia
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occrider
Traveladdict



Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York

quote:
Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0
And the dominance of that part of the world. Seriously, no sane country in the world would ever attack another one in order to rebuild it and to make the lives of the people living there better. If such a country would exist, it would not last very long.


ahem ... the marshall plan?

Old Post Apr-18-2003 13:57  United States
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AnotherWay83
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Registered: Aug 2000
Location: land of d(-_-)b

quote:
Originally posted by occrider
ahem ... the marshall plan?


no country was actually attacked just so it could be rebuilt under the marshall plan

Old Post Apr-18-2003 18:58 
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occrider
Traveladdict



Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York

quote:
Originally posted by AnotherWay83
no country was actually attacked just so it could be rebuilt under the marshall plan


Germany was attacked to provide for a better life for people living in Germany ... which was pretty much all of western europe at that point.


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Old Post Apr-18-2003 20:59  United States
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AnotherWay83
The B00b Maintenance Guy™



Registered: Aug 2000
Location: land of d(-_-)b

quote:
Originally posted by occrider
Germany was attacked to provide for a better life for people living in Germany ... which was pretty much all of western europe at that point.


lol...no. it was attacked mainly because of its highly aggressive attitude and the threat it posed to the world in general. hitler's regime had the support of the majority of germans anyway...

Old Post Apr-19-2003 05:19 
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occrider
Traveladdict



Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York

quote:
Originally posted by AnotherWay83
lol...no. it was attacked mainly because of its highly aggressive attitude and the threat it posed to the world in general. hitler's regime had the support of the majority of germans anyway...


I know ... I was responding very literally to tito's comments . Either which way you look at it though ... we didn't have to do the marshall plan.


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Old Post Apr-19-2003 08:28  United States
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