Hey dJohn

I will try and sort you out with an example over the weekend at some point. Will try and do note to same, not to other in key and key change.

Alternatively if you have these recrods you could try it yourself.. (The only reason why I chose these is because they are sitting in front of me at the minute).
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Note to same note (D#m to D#m (2A if you use the Camelot method)).

Plastic Boy - Live another life
Cern - The message (Northern Mix) (think southern mix goes in same key)
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Change of note but in same key (D#m to A#m (2A to 3A Camelot method)).

Pulser - My Religion (either of the above two tracks will also work in this case.
Spider - Striker (Original version)

This can also go down in key and still sound good (G#m or 1A).
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A great example of a key change (renewed energy) and one that I used to do in my set is: (Em to Fm (9A to 4A in Camelot method))

Marcel Woods - Serenity (Original Mix)
Jon the Dentist - Mercury (Push harder mix)

Avoid doing this mix in reverse order, just as it gives energy if done correctly. It can also give the effect of zapping energy if done the wrong way round. (Might be one of the reasons why you see an inexperienced DJ empty a dancefloor even if the mix sounded perfect? Specualative).

Both of these are on ID&T records and just naturally felt right together when I played them. If you get the chance to test this enjoy.
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Cheers
Nemesis44

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Last edited by Nemesis44 on Aug-21-2003 at 00:07

Hmm I have My Religion and Live Another Life
I kinda see what you are saying, but I ahve to actually try it myself ot see what it sounds like...
thanks though...I'll keep checking back.

After reading this thread, I thought I'd try something different to help mix in key. I've been keeping it in the back of my mind for a while ever since a DJ mate of mine mentioned it to me.

btw if anyone's ever listened to Paul Holden mix, you can tell he can't mix in key. Apologies Paul if you're reading, but... well... *ouch!*

So on the weekend I set up a spectrograph on my laptop. I fed the cue output into a double 6mm jack, so the headphone output went to the laptop as well as my headphones. Now I had a 'waterfall' display of all the frequencies in my headphones, visible on screen. Simple, I thought, all I have to do is line up the harmonics and bob's yer auntie's live-in-boyfriend. Well, it turned out to be not that simple.

If you want to try this yourself, then make sure your spectrogram has a logarithmic scale for frequency, otherwise you're wasting your time. (mine only had linear). Also the more colours the better, they help you figure out where the slight harmonics are.

One thing I noticed is that there is a lot of bass activity that you normally just don't hear, big long sweeps starting from 30 hz, peaking in the white noise whoosh that signifies the end of a measure. Also you can really tell when a DJ is mixing in another song, you can see it graphically on the screen.

I tried two songs that were out of key, as well as two songs that were spot on in key, and couldn't tell the difference on the spectrograph. Bah! I guess a guitar tuner might work better, or perhaps a spectrograph that's logarithmic.

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Kansai - Remember This Night [Original mix] (Fm ) >
Mike Shiver - Feelings [Original mix] (Fm)

pulled this transition out a few a weeks ago. harmonic mixing sounds awesome!

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I'm not sure about the value of spectrum analysis for harmonic mixing, but I do recall the effect harmonic mixing first had on me back in the 1980s: I dreamed I was flying, while everyone else was shlepping through the jungle.

Hey... I was about to post the mixes that I was talking about earlier but I can only get the Kbit down to 32. Does anyone know of any software that does 24?

Cheers
Nem

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harmonic mixing is key for making really good mixs

if you really want to be good at it tho, you shouldn't have to rely on websites and such for finding "what songs works with what song"

altho these sites help out the beginer in knowing what keys clash and which complement eachother, a DJ should know which keys of songs are compatible by just hearing the songs.

maybe not knowing that "hey that song is C#M" but by saying "hmm medway's bassline track will work awsome with sander k's my lexicon"
you should be able to do it all by ear. being able to feel the crowd and be like its time to continue the vibe with a song thats in the same key (by knowing the sound of the song), or be like ummm ok. its time to step up this a level.

i'm no expert on key's and such, but i really am trying to learn. i've been taking piano, and am really trying to learn keys and theory. i wan't to know the technicality of it all but i don't want that to be what i base my mixing on. i think to be a real musician on the decks you gotta be able to just know it and feel it right. have that grounding in music theory. i think every DJ should play another instrument and know a bit about theory, but what it all comes down to in the end is really knowing music well, whether that is knowing the technical vocab or just knowing how sounds go together (which can come from knowing the technicalities of music theory).

if you really want to hear an incredible example of harmonic mixing, listen to sasha's GU 013 CD 1(where i got the sandker k, and medway example from)

Hey Montie,

I agree, once people become good at it they should not need to go to websites to get this info. And yes there is definately an art to knowing which tune will go where. But people have to start somewhere. Once they get used to hearing what an in key mix sounds like they will eventually not need to refer to a website. But if they did, and they were a better DJ than you or I as a result of doing so, who would we be to argue?
I play guitar and piano and produce my own trance so have a keen musical interest, but after 16 years of DJing I still key my records as it does help. And I know some of the big name DJs do too.

By the way you are so right, Sasha is an excellent example of harmonic mixing as he always does it. Paul van Dyk, Tiesto, Oakenfold and M.I.K.E. also do it.

I checked out your mix. Did you know that the keys you use are:

Em, Em, Cm, F#m, D#m, Dm, Dm, or
9a, 9a, 5a, 11a, 2a, 7a, 7a with the Camelot method.
(Keeping in mind that this may not be the true key that the record would go in at +-0 due to pitch. Guitar was also a little out of tune ).

Keeping in mind that you are learning the piano I think that you will in time look at this mix and think that you may have liked to have done this a bit differently. Some of the keys clash but you get away with it as you mixed beat and bass into just beat etc.
Your mix is well thought out, you can see that there is a thread in there and you build which is good. You start well and finish strong. It's the middle section that might let you down. If I was a night club promoter based on that performance I would hire you. But if I had a DJ that did the harmonics better you would get an earlier slot.

Progressive is not my thing but I did like that last track you played, awesome bassline. The transition between the last two tracks is also good harmonically speaking. It just sneaks up on you but when the bass kicks in it uplifts but still feels as if it's meant to be there.

The Key of a record is the very reason why it feels right or wrong. If you know how to work the key changes you could in theory play some fairly mediocre music and still have a good performance, just as you will probably have seen a DJ play all the right tunes but for some reason it just didn't fire you up in the same way that it does when another DJ plays it.

Think of it like this.
Producers go to a hell of a lot of trouble to work keys and chords to play with your emotions. And we know that songs make us feel good or sad etc. So would it not also make sense that a DJ could take this one step further and and play with peoples emotions on a grand scale using the same principles?

I hope you didn't mind me looking at your mix in this way, it is after all just my opinion. You do a lot of the important things right and you value musical knowledge, I think it sounds like you have a good future ahead of you.

All the best and keep up the good work.
Nem

PS
Can someone help with my question regarding the setting up of MP3 files?

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I believe that in order to successfully "wing it" and program complete sets harmonically without any key research, a DJ would need two things: (1) Close to perfect pitch, so that he instinctively recognizes different keys and the relationship between them. (2) An intimate knowledge and encyclopedic memory of all potential songs in his playlist, so that every potential mix would instinctively register as either "harmony" or "disharmony."

Most folks are not blessed with perfect pitch, nor do they have the time to develop intimate knowledge of all potential songs in their playlists. New combinations are therefore a hit or miss proposition for most DJs until they use a system. They may recall AFTER THE FACT that certain mixes sound much better than other mixes, but they could use a tool to systematically categorize POTENTIAL mixes instead of using a random approach. A system may reduce experimentation by 75%, and allow the DJ to concentrate on the art of blending songs that are already compatible.

And the Camelot system is a damn fine one. Logical and easy to use.

Nem

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https://www.mixcloud.com/Calvin_Karass/

I think I'm getting it now...my mixes are sounding alot more smooth and easy flowing, not to mention my transitions are getting alot better.
I think doing it by ear and feelis better than having a systematic catalogue of keying records...granted that it might aid alot, but your ear is your best tool IMO.
Thanks again.
BTW, one last request..can anybody do the key arrangement for Magik 6, Nyana, and GU13? Thanks again!