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Originally posted by CortexBomb I completely respect people's right to be religious, on the micro level it's reassuring, it gives people an artificial extended family (as Vonnegut would say), and it can give some much-needed purpose to the grind. I have a problem with it on the macro level, whatwith all the wars and bloodshed it's caused over the years, but this is really straying off topic. My whole point was simply that even *if* ID was an indisputable concept (which is most assuredly isn't) it wouldn't prove anything other than the existence of a fundamental unknowable force. Perhaps that force is conscious, perhaps it isn't, but it still isn't giving us divine revelation or anything like that, and as such I don't see how it's getting us anywhere to argue about it if we agree that the end result is fundamentally the same. If someone could prove that God(dess)(s)/etc. has an interest in humanity, has a reason to care about worshippers, is particularly focused on us, or any of the other major points of most religions then we'd have something to discuss, but ID in and of itself doesn't do any of this. If all we're hoping for is agreement on whether or not the universe was created at some point, that seems as though it's not getting us anywhere of note. Not to say that I don't enjoy discussions about ultimately pointless abstractions, I am a philosophy major after all

Yes I undesrtand what you mean. But really, theres like only two choices in your case. 1st one would be.. stick to science and proofs for evidence to find an answer to all things, as you say.. you stick to philosophy, and well.. thats what most of it sits over.. really though, there will never be an answer.. all you will find is more questions.
2nd option would be this. Study the bible, or what not.. I myself believe on the pre-existance( when we were with god and chose Jesus plan, instead of Lucifers*satan's*.. so thats why we are here, sicne we chose Jesus plans where we are able to freely make decisions instead of heaving God making them for us ).. and on the Afterdeath, where those that have followed the right path, done right and believed.. though we will face judgement day. Theres much more to this, what Im talking right here takes alot of time to actually tell.. this is just my belief though. What I just wanted to point out is that, for those who believe, believe through Faith, and from that is what actually will help us be saved. But for those who want evidence, proofs to believe, or some kind of signs, I think that you will find many of it through the Bible, people will say is false, but there isnt any evidence that its false, more when its prophecies and teachies are nothing but for your own good, even if you are not religious, it teaches you how to be a better you. .. and yes, I always have many questions.. theres also those who pray.. and actually feel comfort when something is true.

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well baron,
i'd love to argue with you. but so far, all you have done is post a couple articles that are full of so many fallacies i don't know where to begin. it appears that renegade has already thorougly refuted the watchmaker and analogous teleological agruments. the rest of your articles appear to be nothing but strawman anti-evolution propaganda (monkeys typing, 747), which are mischaracterizations of evolution, as they don't take into account the non-random aspect of evolution: natural selection. furthermore, evolution is not abiogenesis.

how about you pick an argument or two that you think are the strongest, and focus on those. so far you've just bombarded us with about a dozen at once.


richard


"...imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in 'an interesting hole I find myself in 'fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!'" --Douglas Adams

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Originally posted by DJBARON guys for every time you see the word G-d appear anywhere here, take out our subjective understandings of the meaning of the word, and replace it with 'ABSOLUTE PERFECTION LACKING NOTHING' because in essense we can only understand this about G-d, that G-d is ABSOLUTE PERFECTION, and LACKS NOTHING. so therefore, echange the word G-d for PERFECTION LACKING NOTHING, and see the results of our discussion when you do that... big difference eh?

GOD
GOD
GOD
GOD
GOD
GOD
GOD
GOD
what

DJBARON

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Originally posted by rizen GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD what

Not getting the point you're trying to make here, but I Love the rainbow motif, reminds me of an old Kurt Cobain grafitti scrawl, "God is Gay"...

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Einen Moment von Freundlichkeit wie daß in einem Traum

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Originally posted by CortexBomb Not getting the point you're trying to make here, but I Love the rainbow motif, reminds me of an old Kurt Cobain grafitti scrawl, "God is Gay"...

oh yeah, didnt notice lol

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Originally posted by DJBARON Dr. Michael Denton, "Evolution: A Theory in Crisis"

Ok this proves just HOW close minded most uber-religious people tend to be. For the purpose of argument lets presume humans are the product of millions of years of evolution. It doesn’t for a second mean that god wasn’t involved does it? Who’s to say that god didn’t get the ball rolling on the evolutionary front and let things happen? Yet it’s an assumption that evolution equals godless. Evolution is a sound theory and no matter how much tire rhetoric, unless you can provide HARD evidence to the contrary (and; “but it’s really really complicated” doesn’t count), I won’t think otherwise in a hurry.

Interesting side note: Strange how many of the people who don’t believe in evolution still subscribe to the ideas of Social Darwinism isn’t it?

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Originally posted by DJBARON ADDRESSING ARGUMENT NUMBER ONE - "design implies designer"

Download a fractal generator program – hit the button and using a mathematical formula a beautiful and infinitely complex pattern is displayed. It looks intelligent – surely there would have to be a creator for this, after all the design imply designer. No, not at all. It’s the sheer product of numbers. One could argue that the program, the formula and numbers are all inputted by a human, thus there is a creator. With this I disagree. The original fractal formulas were not “created” by anyone but discovered by accident and then refunded over time. Of all the countless billions upon billions of formulas that have been used by humans in society it was that luck one that managed to make the fractals. Bottom line was – it’s random.

Here’s another example. You walk down to the beach, pick up a pebble and it’s perfectly round. All the other pebbles you see are different shapes and sizes, with a few close, but not quite perfectly round. Which is more likely – someone created this perfectly round pebble and deposited it right in the middle of the beach or the ebbs and flows of the sea resulted in this perfectly round pebble?

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Originally posted by DJBARON Perhaps the reason why some people take issue with this application of logic is due to the accompanying consequences.

Perhaps the reason why some people take issue with the idea that there is no God or creator is due to the accompanying consequences of this argument.

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Originally posted by DJBARON WHAT ABOUT RANDOM EVOLUTION? For all intents and purposes, an event with the probability of 1 in 1040,000 qualifies in real-world terms as impossible.

Simply put; Just because something is highly IMPROBABLE, it does not mean it is IMPOSSIBLE. Given the mind bogglingly vast size and age of the universe, virtually anything can, will and has happened by sheer law of numbers. 1 in 1040,000 may qualify in real world terms as impossible, but in universals terms, that’s nothing. There are way more then 1040,000 planets in the universe, thus more than ample for life to develop.

Now that your initial post is dealt with, I’d like to raise a few questions myself. For the purpose of argument let’s presume that God did create life. But wait, we’ve stumbled on a problem already – who’s god created it? There are countless numbers of religions (ignoring denominations and sects!) which claim to have a creator or god.

Secondly, if there is a god why is it concerned with us? If the concept of god is correct, I.e something which has the power to create and destroy the universe, why would it be so concerned with the issues of the poor lowly idiots who are slowly destroying one of his creations?

Anyway even if there is a creator – I see no need to worship them. They did a terrible job of creating if I’m to live in this rubbish world that has been desecrated by their all the little monkey that it was populated with.

Oh and while we’re in the habit of quoting people: Karl Marx: “Religion is the opium of the masses”

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Originally posted by Spin Doctor Anyway even if there is a creator – I see no need to worship them. They did a terrible job of creating if I’m to live in this rubbish world that has been desecrated by their all the little monkey that it was populated with. Oh and while we’re in the habit of quoting people: Karl Marx: “Religion is the opium of the masses”

please post more often

btw i do believe theres a higher power, but just that she/he/it doesnt care anymore. everything couldnt have been created from nothingness... or can it

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Originally posted by rizen please post more often

he he! I do like to post in the politics forum but there usually isn’t enough good topics to start with, and when they are they are about 100 pages long and I can’t be bothered to read through it all.

Here are some links you might find interesting rizen:
http://www.enemies.com/index2.html
http://www.gnosis.org/
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06592a.htm

Basically, Gnosis is like this hybrid Christian/Buddhist religion that believes the world was created by a demented half wit lunatic god which is why it is so terrible. The only way to get out of here is through meditation to try and achieve enlightenment!

Anyway, here’s another gem for everyone to consider. Because our minds are so small and limited, even if there was a God who created the universe, we would never truly be able to understand or comprehend them or it – thus why bother?

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Originally posted by rizen please post more often btw i do believe theres a higher power, but just that she/he/it doesnt care anymore.

sounds to me like you are a deist.

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Originally posted by rizen everything couldnt have been created from nothingness... or can it

why not? it seems that you are willing to allow for a higher power/creator that wasn't created.. why the double standard?


richard

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Originally posted by rizen btw i do believe theres a higher power, but just that she/he/it doesnt care anymore. everything couldnt have been created from nothingness... or can it

Ahhh a fellow deist ... although I sometimes switch between being a deist and an agnostic depending upon my mood (I blame my Catholic upbringing). At any rate, who's to say that there ever was an origin or a start for anything? Humans have defined time as being a linear entity with a definable start point and end point. This does not mean time behaves according to this principle. Let me ask you something, does time have an end? If time does not have an end, why the presumption that time has a beginning? Superstring theory has some interesting concepts of circular time.

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Retro ...

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Originally posted by Spin Doctor Simply put; Just because something is highly IMPROBABLE, it does not mean it is IMPOSSIBLE. Given the mind bogglingly vast size and age of the universe, virtually anything can, will and has happened by sheer law of numbers. 1 in 1040,000 may qualify in real world terms as impossible, but in universals terms, that’s nothing. There are way more then 1040,000 planets in the universe, thus more than ample for life to develop.

I'm glad you posted this, because I forgot to address it in my other posts.

When you talk about the odds of life forming, or the universe being created, or the brain containing x amount of cells being extremely low, even if we assume that the odds are as small as this article suggests, please be aware that to use these odds as evidence of ID, you're overlooking the Law of Truly Large Numbers and the Anthropic Principle as a satisfactory means of explaining why we have defied the odds that suggest, mathetatically, that we shouldn't exist.

The Law of Truly Large Numbers can be best explained by walking along the beach. Stop at a random location, pick up a grain of sand and then look at it. Do you have any idea how small the odds are of you selecting that particular grain of sand at random? Literally billions upon billions to one. You'd have a greater chance of winning the lottery and getting struck by lightning on the same day. Yet is there anything miraculous about bending over and picking up a grain of sand? Must there be something divine about that grain of sand for you to have picked it up against seemingly impossible odds? Let's really screw up the odds then: take off your shoes and go running around the beach. Then, when you leave and get back to your car, scrape all the sand off your feet into a tub or something, study them and then consider the odds: there's probably several hundred (more likely thousands) of grains of sand in that tub, out of several billion that exist on the beach. Do you have any idea what the odds are of you leaving the beach with those grains of sand are? Does someone want to work it out? I wouldn't mind betting that the odds are far smaller than any of the odds provided in the articles - and yet all you've done is go to the beach. The odds of going to the beach and scraping certain grains of sand into a tub are much smaller than the possibility of life, or the possibility of human existence.

And that's all the current state of the universe is - the infinitely improbable (yet inevitable) culmination of billions of billion to one shots of varying importance. Even if we consider the past 24 hours on Earth (an infinitesimally small part of the time and space in the universe as a whole) the fact that it is in the exact state it's in now rather than in some other state is immesurably small. From someone winning the lottery in the UK, to someone getting struck by lightning in Taiwan, to two specific oxygen atoms (out of trillions) combining with one specific carbon atom (out of trillions) in Peru to form a specific Carbon-dioxide mollecule (out of trillions), the cumulative odds of everything that's happened on Earth in the past 24 hours actually happenning would be written as a one placed over the biggest number you've ever encountered in your life. But is there anything that's occurred in the past 24 hours that is especially remarkable or necessarily "divine" in nature? No. It's merely the law of truly large numbers.

The anthropic principle is a little harder to explain, but all it basically states is that these "impossible odds" do occur, and that we shouldn't feel as though it's a miracle in any sense that we do exist in a universe "configured" perfectly to our existence. If the universe wasn't configured like it is now, we wouldn't be around to notice, just as if the world had turned out in a different state (out of zillions of possible states) after the last 24 hours, we wouldn't know any differently. If there are a billion possible outcomes of equal importance - just as there may be a billion grains of sand to choose from at the beach - by definition, one of these billion to one shots must occur, just as, if we were to go to the beach with the intention of picking up a grain of sand, we must go home with one of the billion. There is nothing remarkable about events of a very low probability occuring because, paradoxically, billion to one outcomes must, by definition, occur.

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