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Originally posted by Shakka They complied in "process" not in "substance" as reported by Blix. Translation: They continued the game of leading inspectors on wild goose chases while compiling a 12,000 page dossier of bullshit to deter attention from the fact that they still couldn't account for weapons they were already known to have just a few years prior. And I suppose that the taped phone conversations that Colin Powell presented to the U.N. were probably faked too, right?

You're assuming that the Iraqi government knew where all the weapons are. That's a lot of paperwork and things often get lost or stolen. Things like that happen in every country. I remember a news report where Russia said it can't account for a large amount of it's missiles and nuclear waste. Add to that daily bombings by the US and UK forces in the no-fly zone and no wonder some of the weapons are unaccounted for. During assault situations, things get messed up and confused, and they're often lost or forgotten. Consider a situation where a bomb falls on a building where all the paperwork about local weapon supplies is stored. It's very likely that some weapons will be overlooked when they're attempted to be accounted for later on.

Now, about the Powell's speech, what makes you so sure that was legitimate evidence? Nobody knows how or when those tapes were made. For all we know they could have been recorded prior to the first UN inspections right after the first gulf war. Even more so because those weapons have a very short shelf life, and Iraq was forbidden to import any substance that could have helped in prolonging their functional status. Besides, it has already been proven that Powell presented fake evidence during his speech (WMD trucks). I see no reason to believe any other points he made.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 You're assuming that the Iraqi government knew where all the weapons are. That's a lot of paperwork and things often get lost or stolen.[ Things like that happen in every country. I remember a news report where Russia said it can't account for a large amount of it's missiles and nuclear waste.

Yes, and you are assuming that the Iraqi government didn't know where the weapons are--after all they're the organization that was sponsoring the WMD programs--your argument here is silly. The Russia you are talking about (I am assuming the former USSR) is also exponentially larger than Iraq--it's much more believable that weapons could be lost in Russia than in Iraq based on geographic size alone. Not to mention the climates in both countries aren't exactly ideal for weapons inspections.

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Add to that daily bombings by the US and UK forces in the no-fly zone and no wonder some of the weapons are unaccounted for. During assault situations, things get messed up and confused, and they're often lost or forgotten. Consider a situation where a bomb falls on a building where all the paperwork about local weapon supplies is stored. It's very likely that some weapons will be overlooked when they're attempted to be accounted for later on.

Some of the weapons??? Perhaps, but we're not talking about a few vials of cologne here. We're talking about tons and kiloliters here. If they were destroyed, there would be ample evidence to prove it. You give too much credit to a regime that has been globally recognized as deceitful in the past. What makes you think they suddenly decided to change??? The kicking out of inspectors in '98? In my humble opinion, that only provided a better opportunity to cover tracks and hide evidence.

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Now, about the Powell's speech, what makes you so sure that was legitimate evidence? Nobody knows how or when those tapes were made. For all we know they could have been recorded prior to the first UN inspections right after the first gulf war.

Maybe, but I give a lot more credibility to Colin Powell than I do to Saddam Hussein. Again, I think you're reaching.

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Even more so because those weapons have a very short shelf life, and Iraq was forbidden to import any substance that could have helped in prolonging their functional status.

Yeah, and it's illegal to import Cuban cigars into the U.S. but it happens all the time. I could get you a case of Castro's own Cohibas by this weekend without much trouble. Illegality doesn't mean impossilibity. Where there is a will, there is a way.

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Besides, it has already been proven that Powell presented fake evidence during his speech (WMD trucks). I see no reason to believe any other points he made.

Nice try. The evidence may have proven less useful than originally thought, but to say it was faked implies that it was created by the U.S. and her allies, or that there was some sort of forgery involved. That is simply not the case. The trucks weren't planted, they were found. It was never proven that the trucks had not possibly been used for biological weapons production/refining prior to their discovery either.

Last edited by Shakka on Sep-22-2003 at 18:41

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Originally posted by Shakka Yes, and you are assuming that the Iraqi government didn't know where the weapons are--after all they're the organization that was sponsoring the WMD programs--your argument here is silly. The Russia you are talking about (I am assuming the former USSR) is also exponentially larger than Iraq--it's much more believable that weapons could be lost in Russia than in Iraq based on geographic size alone. Not to mention the climates in both countries aren't exactly ideal for weapons inspections.

Yes, but Russia wasn't in a war and it wasn't bombarded daily. That makes the Iraqi situation that much more difficult than the russian. Besides, the land size doesn't really matter that much. The odds of finding a forgotten supply storage burried in a desert or in the middle of siberia are both close to zero.

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Some of the weapons??? Perhaps, but we're not talking about a few vials of cologne here. We're talking about tons and kiloliters here. If they were destroyed, there would be ample evidence to prove it. You give too much credit to a regime that has been globally recognized as deceitful in the past. What makes you think they suddenly decided to change??? The kicking out of inspectors in '98? In my humble opinion, that only provided a better opportunity to cover tracks and hide evidence.

Oh, then how come the US forces didn't manage to find any of those weapons in over half a year? I'm sure they'd be easy to find, after all we're talking about tons and kiloliters of weapons.

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Maybe, but I give a lot more credibility to Colin Powell than I do to Saddam Hussein. Again, I think you're reaching.

It is true that Powell is more credible than Saddam, but that doesn't mean his report should be trusted. First, his report was made largely not by him but by CIA operatives, not by Powell himself. Second, some evidence that the report was flawed already exists. Third, the evidence was largely inconclusive, and vague at best. Yes, some Iraqis were talking about hiding some illegal stuff, and yes, there were blurred sattelite shots of Iraqis covering up some building. So what, that's not proof, those were indications at best. Besides, I ask you again, if the US had such an easy time collecting all the evidence about Iraqi WMDs, why is it so hard now to find them? Oh, and let's not forget that a large amount of the "evidence" material was written by some students and by Jane's defence weekly somewhere in mid 90s.

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Yeah, and it's illegal to import Cuban cigars into the U.S. but it happens all the time. I could get you a case of Castro's own Cohibas by this weekend without much trouble. Illegality doesn't mean impossilibity. Where there is a will, there is a way.

Your comparison with cuban cigars is not realistic. Smuggling cigars to the US is really of no vital interest to the country. Smuggling antrax on the other hand is.

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Nice try. The evidence may have proven less useful than originally thought, but to say it was faked implies that it was created by the U.S. and her allies, or that there was some sort of forgery involved. That is simply not the case. The trucks weren't planted, they were found. It was never proven that the trucks had not possibly been used for biological weapons prior to their discover either.

Nobody said the trucks have been planted. But the trucks were told to be mobile weapon factories. Those very trucks were found and it was discovered they were not what Powell claimed them to be. And it's not that easy to hide all the evidence of biological weapon production facility. If they were ever used for producing those agents, that would have been observable. If that was not the case, then all the WMD search in Iraq is doomed to failure, as you could say Saddam cleaned all the evidence of WMDs ever existing in Iraq. But if that was the case, then there was no reason for the war either.

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Originally posted by Izzy that is not true. many hamas members have had training inside iraq for use of explosive devices. a hamas member was assasinated in baghdad by another palestinian orginization. colin powell reported of "al-qeada-esque" military camps in iraq. one can not say that terrorists did not breed or reside in iraq.

- Your right. What I wanted, or trying to say is that compared to know, terrorism in Iraq was nothing like it is now.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Oh, then how come the US forces didn't manage to find any of those weapons in over half a year? I'm sure they'd be easy to find, after all we're talking about tons and kiloliters of weapons.

half a year ain't a long time. We live in a society that expects instantaneous results. Iraq has had years to hide and deceive. And don't try to turn it around on me and say that the inspectors should've been given more time for this very reason--if Iraq had ever had any intentions of giving up it's WMD's, they would've done so readily for the inspectors. In the end the inspections served very little purpose outside of political gamesmanship.

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Your comparison with cuban cigars is not realistic. Smuggling cigars to the US is really of no vital interest to the country. Smuggling antrax on the other hand is.

Maybe not to you, but it certainly illustrates a point. It was the first thing I could think of off the top of my head. Bottom line here is that where a black market exists (and only an idiot would argue that there is no black market for weapons trade), there is a way to acquire illegal goods. Period.

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Nobody said the trucks have been planted. But the trucks were told to be mobile weapon factories. Those very trucks were found and it was discovered they were not what Powell claimed them to be. And it's not that easy to hide all the evidence of biological weapon production facility. If they were ever used for producing those agents, that would have been observable.

But you just finished telling me how fragile and perishable the materials are, i.e. that their shelf life is extremely short. Are you now changing your stance and saying that the chemical/biological agents don't have a short shelf-life and evidence of their presense would be observable for months if not years after the fact? Please make up your mind.

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Originally posted by Shakka half a year ain't a long time. We live in a society that expects instantaneous results. Iraq has had years to hide and deceive. And don't try to turn it around on me and say that the inspectors should've been given more time for this very reason--if Iraq had ever had any intentions of giving up it's WMD's, they would've done so readily for the inspectors. In the end the inspections served very little purpose outside of political gamesmanship.

I agree with that, but then you must accept that if Iraqis were so good at hiding those weapons, Powell had little proof of their existance.

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Maybe not to you, but it certainly illustrates a point. It was the first thing I could think of off the top of my head. Bottom line here is that where a black market exists (and only an idiot would argue that there is no black market for weapons trade), there is a way to acquire illegal goods. Period.

It sure does exist, but in Iraqi situation it was very closely monitored. Saddam did try to smuggle various components (remember the huge gun that was supposed to be targeting Israel?) but they were usually stopped in doing so.

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But you just finished telling me how fragile and perishable the materials are, i.e. that their shelf life is extremely short. Are you now changing your stance and saying that the chemical/biological agents don't have a short shelf-life and evidence of their presense would be observable for months if not years after the fact? Please make up your mind.

They have a short period of usefulness, but their traces are usually longer lasting.

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Originally posted by pumpdafunk hahaha I'm really not into politics or war issues (most girls aren't)...but what exactly are some of you saying? that Iraq actually LOST WMDs?? do you know how much those things are worth? haha that's like losing 50 Ferraris. lol dude where are my weapons of mass destruction? hahahaha

They're worth only if they're usable. If their usability period expired, they're pretty much worthless and if they're lost, noone is gonna be looking for them.

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quick post, in bush's speech today he pointed out some good that has happened in iraq since the war the gets little attention:

tons and tons of food is now freely distributed through the world food program and other aid groups.

over 1,000 new schools have been built

vaccinations are being given to children agianst mumps, polio and measels.

governmental independancies (a justice system, iraqi police and border gaurd, etc)

living conditions are improving and will do so over the next few years

and so forth

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Originally posted by Izzy quick post, in bush's speech today he pointed out some good that has happened in iraq since the war the gets little attention: tons and tons of food is now freely distributed through the world food program and other aid groups. over 1,000 new schools have been built vaccinations are being given to children agianst mumps, polio and measels. governmental independancies (a justice system, iraqi police and border gaurd, etc) living conditions are improving and will do so over the next few years and so forth

How dare you spread good news! Don't you know it's not cool to support the U.S.???

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Originally posted by Cyrus King You obviously dont see my point. TWO WRONGS DONT MAKE A RIGHT! This war has MURDERED many people, just like Saddam has MURDERED many. And do you honestly think this world is far better than it used to be before the war. The middle east is in chaos. Afghanistan is not doing so well, and Iraq is in shambles. The world is split apart with this decision, and billions of people are pissed off at the US. Not to mention that Terrorist attacks have increased since then in Indonesia, Suadi Arabia, Israel and Iraq and Afghanistan. And WHAT DANGER was Saddam right before the war? People in Iran and Kuwait, who are neighbors with Iraq, werent shouting WAR! But the US and Britain, who are far from that part of the world, claimed to have been threatened...give me a fucking break.

Yes the war has murdered many, show me a war which hasn't. What would you suggest we should have done about Saddams murdering, sit back and watch him murder more people?

The middle East has always been in chaos since world war 2, the fact that it is in chaos at the moment is not a by product of the war in Iraq. Iraq is in shambles? Did you think it would be all green grass and singing a few months after the war. Get real, it will take time to turn things around there.