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DaveSZ
When The Levee Breaks



Registered: Jan 2003
Location: ATX

http://www.montrealmirror.com/ARCHI...1203/news1.html

Good times go bad

>> School authorities bust New York teens for behaving like Montrealers


by KRISTIAN GRAVENOR

Anybody who has walked downtown on a weekend evening probably has a good idea that countless young American students regularly visit to sow their wild oats.

But a hushed-up scandal involving students from Blind Brook High School in posh Westchester County, New York, shows that such activities aren’t always meant to be on the travel itinerary. Thirty of 67 Blind Brook junior year students who spent the weekend of May 16 in Montreal have been put under on-campus lockdown. Their privileges have been revoked and they have been forced to attend counselling after visiting bars, going to strip clubs and playing video lottery terminals in our city, according to local reports.

The school is in a well-off suburb of New York City and, according to one town journalist, “95 per cent of the students from that school go on to elite colleges.” But their educational trip apparently included several extracurricular, unscheduled lessons in grown-up behaviour. On May 30, school superintendent William Miles told local television and print media that the students engaged in six forbidden activities, although he refused to name them.

Miles failed to return several phone messages left by the Mirror asking for more lurid details concerning the students’ drunken merriment. One parent, reached by phone, said that the students had been instructed to not talk to media. The events happened even though students had been lectured by a police officer prior to the trip about the dire consequences of underage drinking.

In 1984, Ronald Reagan threatened to withhold federal funding to states that didn’t raise the legal drinking age to 21. All have now complied, making the USA the country with the world’s highest minimum drinking age. In contrast, in Quebec, people are not only legally allowed to order a drink at age 18 but are tacitly welcomed into some bars much earlier. When asked how often police raid bars for youth alcohol consumption, Montreal police rep Luc Belhumeur says it’s “almost never. There has to be a complaint to launch an investigation. Underage drinking isn’t something we get a lot of complaints about.”

Dry zeal

Some American experts question whether the strictly-enforced ban on alcohol consumption in the states is either legitimate or beneficial. David J. Hanson, a retired professor from nearby Syracuse University, has studied youth drinking and likes Montreal’s laissez-faire policies.

“I think it’s a sensible, common-sense European approach. What we’ve done in the U.S. is try to stigmatize alcohol,” he says. “There’s an effort to prevent drinking rather than prevent alcohol abuse.

“The zero tolerance policy is counter-productive. It’s a specific prohibition that leads youth to engage in heavy episodic drinking that leads them to car crashes,” he continues. He also notes that the policy has led to a rise on alcohol-related crashes between those aged 21 to 24. “We’ve simply displaced the problem and pushed those fatalities onto people who are older.”

Alex Koroknay-Palicz, the 21-year-old president of the Maryland-based National Youth Rights Association, also dislikes the age-specific prohibition. “The complete aversion to youth alcohol use is way over the top in this country,” he says. “For whatever reason, we have a complete aversion to youth alcohol use, even though pretty much all other countries in the world, including our neighbours, have much lower drinking ages and alcohol is handled much safer than here.”

Koroknay-Palicz says that throughout the States, police actively enforce the law through such methods as sting operations on beer sellers and by busting adult-supervised house parties where kids sleep over rather than drive home drunk.

“Even though America is "the land of the free," Canada seems to be far more free towards young people,” he says.


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Old Post Dec-08-2003 09:20 
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DaveSZ
When The Levee Breaks



Registered: Jan 2003
Location: ATX

http://www.post-gazette.com/forum/c...6edmcos16p4.asp


Forum: Neoprohibitionists on a binge
Puritans who want to sequester young people from alcohol are actually undermining the cause of responsible drinking

Sunday, June 16, 2002

By Gerald K. McOscar







I first heard the word "neo-prohibition" used in casual conversation about 10 years ago while on my first date with an attractive, self-assured court reporter who had attracted my attention during a routine deposition. The fact that she enjoyed a good joke and an occasional beer added to her cachet.

Our get-acquainted conversation about assorted stuff and nonsense on our way to Philadelphia revealed that we had much in common. A farm girl, she was of a conservative mind, being especially passionate about personal autonomy tethered to personal responsibility. She labeled the then-burgeoning push to curb underage drinking faddish neo-prohibition, predicting that it would fail because it took no account of human nature and what it meant to be young. She was right.

Since then, a plethora of laws, regulations and zero-tolerance policies administered by cowed and clueless bureaucrats spurred by a need to cover their butts and appease an army of latter-day prohibitionists, politicians and opportunists have dictated compulsory abstinence for young adults under age 21.

No responsible adult would encourage binge drinking among young people, but these overwrought efforts to protect them from demon rum has accomplished little except to ensure that they remain forever children in a hermetically sealed world insulated from real life.

In a new study the National Institutes of Health discovered that college students drink a lot. Is it any wonder? Harsh laws and draconian penalties have driven teen-agers away from the watchful eyes of parents and responsible adults and toward other drugs, while adding the allure of forbidden fruit to alcohol's timeless allure.

Parents who wish to teach responsible drinking are stigmatized or prosecuted and cultural differences discounted or ignored. The combination of pent-up demand, the first exhilarating taste of freedom and prolonged adolescence readily accounts for so-called college binge drinking.

The spirit of puritanism coupled with a low grade anti-capitalist fever flourishes in America, particularly around guilty pleasures like drinking, smoking, SUVs and businesses profiting therefrom. Recently Columba University's National Center on Addiction and Substance Abuse erroneously reported that "underage" drinkers between the ages of 12 and 20 consumed 25 percent of all alcoholic beverages ingested in the United States before reluctantly acknowledging that the true figure is closer to 11 percent.

Most of the "underage" drinking in America is actually done by young adults between the ages of 18 and 21, technically underage, but old enough to vote and serve in the military.

The NIH study proposes harsher enforcement and restricted access, but The Wall Street Journal notes that the study doesn't suggest the most sensible approach: make collegiate drinking safe and legal by lowering the age to 19. Binge drinking became a "problem" in 1986 when the federal government forced states to raise the drinking age to 21.

When young adults are treated like hothouse flowers, with alcohol completely off-limits to anyone under 21, it's little wonder they have trouble learning to drink responsibly.

Winston Churchill proclaimed his "rule of life prescribes as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and the intervals between them."

In his will John Harvard, founder of Harvard University, bequeathed "one half of my worldly goods" to the establishment of a college of brewing science, "confident that it will aid in the establishment of a better regulated and nobler commonwealth than has hitherto blessed this earth."

Recent research by University of Calgary economist Christopher Auld indicates that light drinkers and teetotalers earn about 10 percent less than heavy and moderate drinkers. While warning against drawing any premature conclusions, Auld stresses that the "alcohol-income puzzle" has been "well known among economists for a decade."

Lawmakers and educators should stop treating young adults like children and, like Churchill and Harvard, acknowledge the social and health benefits of responsible, moderate drinking. Nations that teach children moderation over abstinence, such as France, Spain and Italy, may have higher overall rates of alcohol consumption, but far lower rates of alcoholism and alcohol-related diseases.

Truth, reason and common sense, not hyperbole, harsher laws and tighter screws, are the antidotes for binge drinking. Here's a scary thought. In light of the current anti-alcohol fervor on America's college campuses, would either Churchill or Harvard survive a semester?


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Old Post Dec-08-2003 10:51 
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squirrelly
The Phun Nun



Registered: Oct 2003
Location: In the Shower

These laws that "protect" citizens until they are 21 from alcohol, are utterly bullshit (excuse the language).

My flippin' neighbor is a drug dealer. With all the problems with drugs and kids, you would think they would want to protect them more from that. As a young child in sixth grade I had access to drugs easier than alcohol.

With the laws intact about not being able to purchase/drink alcohol until you are 21, most 18-20 year olds turn to drugs to get that high instead of alcohol, since they cannot get any.

All over the world, people can drink at the age of 18. What the hell is wrong with America?!

My cousin is visiting from Poland. He is 19. Long used to drinking (I bought alcohol there from the age of 14), and he can't even sip a beer.

My sister visited with her husband. They went to Disney. She forgot her passport that stated her age of 22. She tried to take a sip from her husbands beer, and nearly got kicked out of Disney.

These laws are ridiculous, and are only leading people to drugs.

How can you be considered an adult at 18 if you are still treated like a child?


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Old Post Dec-08-2003 15:47  Poland
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imokruok
Lawyers, guns, and money



Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Los Angeles, CA / Milwaukee, WI

quote:
Originally posted by surferfb
The 21 drinking age may be unconstitutional.


Drinking ages in the USA are regulated by the states. A state could have a drinking age of 14 if they wanted to, BUT they'd lose their federal highway funds. The US has a "national drinking age" of 21 because the federal government adds regulations to get federal highway money. (All states take the funds).

There's nothing unconsitutional about the states making the drinking age 21. They don't have to do it - they just want the money. There is no constitutional right to drink alcohol. In my state, Wisconsin, we still had the .10 BAC drunk driving standard until last year. We had to change it to .08 BAC to meet the new federal requirements.

The drinking age at 21 sucks. If you're an adult at 18, you should have all of the rights and privileges. It does depend where you live though. In my state, were alcohol consumption has been heavily ingrained in the culture (home of Miller Brewing Co.), there are rarely any major penalties for underage drinking. The cops just dump your beer out and tell you to go home. You only get a ticket if you're an asshole to the cops.

Plus, many states including mine have a "parental exception." This means that if you're out to dinner at a restaurant, mom and dad can say it's okay for you to drink with your meal. (This does -not- work in bars, where there is an age of entry.)

Oh well, I'm just happy I don't have to worry about any of that crap anymore.

Old Post Dec-08-2003 16:30  United States
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DaveSZ
When The Levee Breaks



Registered: Jan 2003
Location: ATX

quote:
Originally posted by DaveSZ

p.s I'll contact the ACLU about this case



Since posting this, I have decided to join the ACLU. My decision was based mostly on reading this:


quote:
ACLU Praises Ruling as Major Civil Liberties Victory for Young Adults

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

DETROIT - In a ruling that will impact young adults throughout the state, a federal judge ruled that Bay City police may no longer force pedestrians under age 21 to take a Breathalyzer test without obtaining a search warrant, the American Civil Liberties Union of Michigan announced today.


"This is a tremendous victory for the civil liberties of young adults," said Kary Moss, Executive Director of the ACLU of Michigan. "For years, police officers throughout Michigan have violated the rights of countless college students and others under the age of 21 by forcing them to submit to breathalyzers without a warrant. We expect other law enforcement jurisdictions to heed the Bay City ruling."

The case stems from an encounter involving Jamie Spencer, a Bay City resident, with the Bay City police in August 2001, when she was 19 years old. She, her husband and some friends were leaving a city park after rollerblading, when two officers approached Mrs. Spencer and demanded that she blow into a Breathalyzer machine.

She told the officers that she had not been drinking and did not want to take the test. However, when the officers threatened her with a $100 fine, she felt she had no choice. The test indicated that she had not been drinking.

"Even though I had done nothing wrong, the police invaded my privacy," said Mrs. Spencer. "I am glad that because of this decision, the police will not harass innocent young people in the future by forcing them into such a demeaning situation."

In a 23-page opinion, U.S. District Court Judge David M. Lawson struck down the Bay City ordinance that makes it illegal for people under age 21 to refuse to consent to a Breathalyzer test. The ruling does not apply to drivers of motor vehicles.

Judge Lawson held that the ordinance violates the Fourth Amendment because (1) a breath test is a search, (2) the Fourth Amendment ordinarily prohibits searches without search warrants, and (3) no exceptions to the search warrant requirement apply.

Judge Lawson further emphasized that "the right to be left alone in public places ranks high on the hierarchy of entitlements that citizens in a free society have come to expect - at least in the context of citizen-police encounters."

Since the Bay City ordinance is identical to a statewide law, the decision will bring welcome relief to college students across the state, according to Jonathan Knapp, president of the Central Michigan University Chapter of the ACLU.

"It is a well-known and common procedure on campuses across the state for the police to stop students walking across campus on weekend nights and force them to take Breathalyzers whether or not they have been drinking," said Knapp. "This is a great student rights decision."

David Moran, an ACLU cooperating attorney, noted that Michigan is the only state in the nation to make it illegal for a minor walking down the street to refuse a Breathalyzer test when the police do not have a search warrant. "We are gratified that the federal court has recognized that the state cannot take away the privacy rights of people just because they are under 21."

In addition to Moran, Mrs. Spencer is represented by Michael J. Steinberg, Legal Director of the ACLU of Michigan and William T. Street, a volunteer ACLU lawyer from Saginaw.


Also they are one of the only organizations that defend us from stupid legislation like the "Rave Act." I started a thread to encourage people to join in support of the ACLU in the NYC forum, but Tiesto 14 took the opportunity to piss on my thread. I don't agree with every single action taken by the ACLU, but for the most part, they really do look out for the little guy. I can only hope my meager $20 membership fee will help someone else out. Well, actually I signed up my dad too hah.


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Old Post Dec-08-2003 16:44 
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'mju:zik
boomchikhaboom



Registered: Apr 2003
Location: Orangethumb Land, currently TO

this really isn't thaaaat big a deal. when i was 16 in the states i had a fake id to buy beer. the few times that cops caught us drinking they just dumped out the alcohol and said that they were happy we werent doing drugs.

the thing that is kinda fuked up is the massachusetts factor. in mass. they dont sell alcohol on sunday. so everyone drives to new hampshire to get it. there's a liquor store right on the highway as you cross the state line. so ppl are drinking on the way back. how fucking stupid. it's pretty similar to the montreal and upstate NY/vermont thing.


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Old Post Dec-08-2003 16:50 
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PHALPAX
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Boston

quote:
Originally posted by 'mju:zik

the thing that is kinda fuked up is the massachusetts factor. in mass. they dont sell alcohol on sunday. so everyone drives to new hampshire to get it. there's a liquor store right on the highway as you cross the state line. so ppl are drinking on the way back. how fucking stupid. it's pretty similar to the montreal and upstate NY/vermont thing.




You can buy booze on sunday now in Mass. The state legislature changed the law recently because alcohol vendors here were getting their ass kicked by N.H. in terms of sales.

Old Post Dec-08-2003 19:24  United States
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'mju:zik
boomchikhaboom



Registered: Apr 2003
Location: Orangethumb Land, currently TO

quote:
Originally posted by PHALPAX
You can buy booze on sunday now in Mass. The state legislature changed the law recently because alcohol vendors here were getting their ass kicked by N.H. in terms of sales.


well dayaaam.. good to know then


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Old Post Dec-08-2003 20:19 
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Blik
The Almighty Blik



Registered: Jan 2001
Location: Rosmalen, Holland

The drinking laws in America are stupid, in The Netherlands you can buy beer when you are 16, you can even buy it in the regular stores (stores like K-Mart) You have to be 18 to buy hard liquor, but they never ask so you can buy it when you are 14 or 15 years old.

I was in America and Canada 2 years ago and I wasn't allowed to walk around the camping site with a can of beer in my hands, I was lucky my parents told me cause otherwise I could have been in trouble.

I just think it is silly that you can drive a car when you are 16 years old, but you have to be 21 to buy beer. I think that it is much wiser to let young people get used to alcohol first, and then let them get a drivers license. I believe that there are a lot of drunk driving incidents in the States, and I think that this is the reason why. The teens don't know what alcohol does to your body, they think that 2, 3 or even 4 beers don't matter. Because they don't have any experience with alcohol, but they allready have their drivers license for 4 or 5 years, which makes them think that they are awsome drivers


hope I made any sense


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Old Post Dec-08-2003 21:29 
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DaveSZ
When The Levee Breaks



Registered: Jan 2003
Location: ATX

quote:
Originally posted by 'mju:zik
this really isn't thaaaat big a deal. when i was 16 in the states i had a fake id to buy beer. the few times that cops caught us drinking they just dumped out the alcohol and said that they were happy we werent doing drugs.

the thing that is kinda fuked up is the massachusetts factor. in mass. they dont sell alcohol on sunday. so everyone drives to new hampshire to get it. there's a liquor store right on the highway as you cross the state line. so ppl are drinking on the way back. how fucking stupid. it's pretty similar to the montreal and upstate NY/vermont thing.


Compared to all the problems in the world, no it's really not a big deal. But, based on personal experience, and all that I've read, it's my belief that these harsh laws make young people in America drink more abusively, interfere with parenting traditions of Italians, Greeks, Jews, etc who live in the country, and lead young people to use more dangerous drugs that are more easily accessable to them.


I also don't think anyone else pointed out the stupidity of allowing one to marry at age 18 (or even younger with parental consent), while at the same time, barring one from legally drinking champagne at their wedding.


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Last edited by DaveSZ on Dec-22-2003 at 04:58

Old Post Dec-22-2003 04:47 
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DaveSZ
When The Levee Breaks



Registered: Jan 2003
Location: ATX

http://www2.potsdam.edu/alcohol-inf...1064263072.html

Responses to Arguments against the Minimum Legal Drinking Age
by David J. Hanson, Ph.D.

The federal government is spending taxpayer money in a questionable political campaign to defend the minimum drinking age against attempts in some states to lower it. In “Responses to Arguments against the Minimum Drinking Age,” the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA) identifies arguments against the minimum legal drinking age and then suggests counter arguments. But in doing so, it plays fast and loose with the facts, a common tactic in politics.

Argument: “If I’m old enough to go to war, I should be old enough to drink”

Actually the argument is much stronger than the NIAAA acknowledges. The fact is that citizens are legally adults at the age of 18. They can marry, vote, adopt children, own and drive automobiles, have abortions, enter into legally binding contracts, operate businesses, purchase or even perform in pornography, give legal consent for sexual intercourse, fly airplanes, hold public office, serve on juries that convict others of murder, hunt wildlife with deadly weapons, be imprisoned, be executed, be an employer, sue and be sued in court, and otherwise conduct themselves as the adults they are. And, of course, they can serve in the United States armed services and give their lives defending their country. One of the very few things they can’t legally do is consume an alcohol beverage. They can’t even have a celebratory sip of champagne at their own weddings.

Counter-Argument: Federal agents suggest pointing out that people can obtain a hunting license at age 12 and a driver’s license at age 16. Ironically, this actually strengthens the argument against treating legal adults as children with regard to alcohol beverages. People can hunt wildlife with a deadly weapon at age 12 but can be trusted with a beer at age 20?

The government also suggests pointing out that people must be 25 to serve in the U.S. House of Representatives, 30 to serve in the Senate, and 35 to serve as President. But these unusual restrictions were imposed well over two hundred years ago in a new country that was still largely reluctant to grant rights and in which neither women nor African Americans were trusted to vote. We’re now in the 21st century enjoying widespread rights and also a time when young people are infinitely more sophisticated.

Clearly, the agency’s arguments are extremely weak and unconvincing.

Argument: “Europeans let their teens drink from an early age, yet they don’t have the alcohol-related problems we do.”

Counter-Argument: The NIAAA responds that “the idea that Europeans do not have alcohol-related problems is a myth.” But no one suggests that Europeans have no drinking-related problems. Here the agency is guilty of using the straw person tactic.... create a very weak argument and then shoot it down.

In reality, research for decades has demonstrated that those countries and groups in Europe and elsewhere in which most people regularly drink but have few drinking-related problems all share three common characteristics:

Alcohol is seen as a rather neutral substance in and of itself. It’s neither a poison nor a magic elixir. Its how its used thats important.
People have two equally acceptable choices:
-Abstain or
-Drink in moderation.
What’s never acceptable is the abuse of alcohol by anyone of any age. Period.
People learn about drinking alcohol in moderation from an early age in the safe and supportive environment of the home, and they do so by good parental example. All of these groups would agree that it’s better to learn about drinking in the parents’ house than in the fraternity house.
Age 21 is actually the highest minimum legal drinking age in the entire world and is a radical social experiment both internationally and in terms of our own national history. Those who call for all adults to be able to drink are traditionalists; whereas those who insist on age 21 are radicals.

Argument: Lower rates of alcohol-related crashes among 19-to 20-year-olds aren’t related to the age 21 policy, but rather they’re related to increased drinking-driver educational efforts, tougher enforcement, and tougher drunk-driving penalties.”

Counter-Argument: The agency wants us to argue that “Careful research has shown the decline was not due to DUI enforcement and tougher penalties, but is a direct result of the legal drinking age” and that “Achieving long-term reductions in youth drinking problems requires an environmental change so that alcohol is less accessible to teens.”

However, there are a number of weaknesses in what the bureaucrats want us to say. It’s true that lower rates of alcohol-related traffic accidents now occur among drivers under the age of 21. But they’ve also been declining among those age 21 and older, with one notable exception.

Raising the minimum legal drinking age has resulted in an apparent displacement of large numbers of alcohol-related traffic fatalities from those under the age of 21 to those age 21 to 24. In short, raising the drinking age simply changed the ages of those killed.

The argument that we need to make alcohol less accessible to adults under the age of 21 fails to recognize the fact, well established by governmental surveys, that its easier for young people to obtain marijuana than alcohol.

It’s also foolish to think that effective prohibition can be imposed on young adults. The U.S. already tried that with the entire population during National Prohibition (1920-1933). The result was less frequent drinking but more heavy, episodic drinking. The effort to impose prohibition on young adults has driven drinking underground and promoted so-called binge drinking. This is a natural and totally predictable consequence of prohibition.

Argument: “We drank when we were young and we grew out of it. It’s just a phase that all students go through.”

Counter-Argument: Interestingly, NIAAA wants us to argue that “Unfortunately, many teens will not ‘grow out of it’.” Implicit is the belief that adults should not consume alcohol even when legally able to do so. The agency apparently envisions a society in which abstention from alcohol is the norm, a vision that it shares with temperance and prohibition advocates.

While not all students will try alcohol, virtually all normal young people will do so and they will do so without ill effects. But NIAAA wants us to promote the discredited and simplistic “steppingstone” hypothesis that suggests that drinking leads to smoking which leads to marijuana, which leads to crack, which leads to cocaine, which leads to degradation and illness, which leads to death.

Argument: “Making it illegal to drink until 21 increases the desire for the ‘forbidden fruit.’ Then, when students turn 21, they’ll drink even more.”

Counter-Argument: NIAAA wants us to assert incorrectly that “Actually the opposite is true. Early legal access to alcohol is associated with higher rates of drinking as an adult.’

In reality, research has clearly demonstrated the “forbidden fruit” phenomenon among adults under the age of 21. On the other hand, there is no evidence that the increased desire to drink continues after students turn 21. In fact, upon turning age 21, many adults find that it’s no longer so much fun to get into bars and drink precisely because it is legal for them to do so.

Observation
While the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism may be guilty of presenting deceptive and misleading arguments in promoting the current minimum legal drinking age, a larger question is the legitimacy of the agency to intrude itself into public and political debates. Perhaps greater congressional oversight of the agencies activities is in order.


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Old Post Dec-22-2003 04:48 
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DJ-Fuq
gone



Registered: Apr 2002
Location: nowhere

quote:
Originally posted by DaveSaenz
Compared to all the problems in the world, no it's really not a big deal. But, based on personal experience, and all that I've read, it's my belief that these harsh laws make young people in America drink more abusively, interfere with parenting traditions of Italians, Greeks, Jews, etc who live in the country, and lead young people to use more dangerous drugs that are more easily accessable to them.

No illegal drug is more dangerous than alcohol.

Old Post Dec-23-2003 05:20 
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