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Originally posted by occrider Well there are plenty of examples of people picking on Sharon ... why pick on Sharon? To be honest however, though I despise and dislike Sharon, I absolutely abhor arafat. Sharon at least has the well-being of his people in mind ... Arafat only has HIMSELF in mind. Simply look at the manipulation and consolidation of power he has practiced throughout the years. It's simply criminal how he has sacrificed peace in the stead of his own personal political gain. He is the 6th most wealthiest king/queen/despot in the world when his people are one of the poorest. He's clearly profiting off of the misery of his people and that is despicable ... http://www.forbes.com/billionaires/...3/0317/049.html

he might have been the richest in the past,but now it seems like he hardly has a place to sleep,and thats based on what I've seen on tv and such.

To be honest it is time for a change meaning no Arafat and no Sharon.I think as long as we have these two around,it'll bring nothing good to neither sides,but thats just my opinion ofcourse.

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer To be honest it is time for a change meaning no Arafat and no Sharon.I think as long as we have these two around,it'll bring nothing good to neither sides,but thats just my opinion ofcourse.

very true indeed, both are military tyrants who are not willing to give in to the demands of either side. The key to the conflict is undoubtedly a Liberal Democratic Leader on both sides. Neither Arafat a supporter of Hamas (who are detrimental in my opinion to the peace process) or Sharon, the military tychoon himself will benefit any form of peace process.

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer he might have been the richest in the past,but now it seems like he hardly has a place to sleep,and thats based on what I've seen on tv and such.

Hehe only cuz the Israelis are such hardasses on him and won't let him go anywhere . His wife is most certainly living the life in Paris at the expense of Palestinian taxpayers ..

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Yasser Arafat ‘has £1.8bn fortune’ WILLIAM TINNING November 07 2003 A TELEVISION documentary is to claim that Yasser Arafat, the Palestinian president, has amassed a personal fortune of up to £1.8bn and his wife is given tens of thousands of pounds each week to fund a lavish lifestyle in Paris. The £1.8bn estimate of Arafat's personal fortune is almost six times higher than had been previously been touted. According to a report in the New York Daily News, the CBS show 60 Minutes will claim on Sunday that he has amassed a personal fortune of between £602m and £1.8bn. It will also claim that Arafat's wife, Suha, 40, who lives away from the struggles of her homeland, is given more than £60,000 a month from Palestinian Authority funds. Lesley Stahl, a CBS correspondent, told the newspaper that Raymonda Tawil, Mrs Arafat's mother, is apparently enjoying life in Paris at the expense of the Palestinian taxpayers. "I have visited Suha's mother, and she lives very well," Stahl said. Mrs Arafat lives in Paris with Arafat's eight-year-old daughter, Zahwa. The daughter of a wealthy Christian family, Mrs Arafat converted to Islam after her secret marriage to Arafat in 1990. While some Palestinians have criticised her decision to remain outside their homeland, Mrs Arafat told an Arabic magazine last year that she was "prepared to return any moment" if her husband so wished. Despite efforts from within and outwith the Palestinian Authority to oust him, Arafat, 74, still controls the purse strings and the hearts and minds of the Palestinians. He remains confined to two rooms in his demolished headquarters in Ramallah as his former negotiating partners, the United States and Israel, plead with other countries to isolate him. Arafat has run the Palestinian Liberation Organisation since 1969. Five years later the Arab League declared the PLO "the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people". In 1996, Arafat was swept into office in elections monitored by western observers, including Jimmy Carter, the former US president. It is claimed that Arafat controls most of the £3.3bn in international aid that has flowed to the Palestinian Authority over the past nine years, during which time he has established a system of financial aid that guarantees the support of a host of Palestinian factions. Last March, Forbes magazine claimed Arafat had a personal fortune of about £181m that was stashed away in secret Swiss bank accounts. At the time the Jerusalem Post wrote that he had "done more than his fair share of plundering his own people, treating their public resources as his personal ATM machine to be looted at will". In 1997, the Israeli media claimed he had a secret bank account in Tel Aviv.

Now granted I take everything I read with a grain of salt but I have no doubts in my mind that Arafat is bad for the Palestinan people. He is extremely smart, and extremely manipulative ... as evidenced by his ability to stay in power for SUCH a long time when Israeli PMs (and what looks to be Palestinian Pms) have come and gone ...

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To be honest it is time for a change meaning no Arafat and no Sharon.I think as long as we have these two around,it'll bring nothing good to neither sides,but thats just my opinion ofcourse.

I'll agree. However, personally I think Sharon is a good matchup against Arafat . The two were meant for each other ... Rabin was no match against Arafat's duplicity.

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Last edited by occrider on Nov-12-2003 at 18:17

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Originally posted by Scorchio I wish you could understand how much your people hate Arrafat and they wish he would die and not be in charge over them. This is not a lie nor is it a new fact, Palestinians are mostly good people, and I know becuase I have interracted with them in many occasions, sure there is a medium precentage of Terrorstis but there are good people from the arab culture in Israel. Too bad you make statements such as "Long live Arrafat" coz you seem very intelligent judging by the way you speak, yet you continue to feed us with total bullshit and excuses that "Shahid means warrior who fights for his land", yeah maybe thats the official definition, but we all know that when Arrafat yells "1000 shahihds are going to Jerusalem" means 1000 suicide bombers. You failed to convince me. If you were to visit Israel and ask the palestinians in Ramallah if they like Arrafat, I guarantee that most of them will tell you they hate him, they simply wont say anything beacuse hes a dictator, like Husein was, and remember how after he was deported everyone was happy, I assure you if Arrafat will be deported the Palestinians will be in bliss. P.S And youre a waste of humanity.

Let me clue your zionist mind in. I was born in Gaza, lived in Gaza, been to Jerusalem, to Bethlehem, and yes, been to Ramallah many times. Arafat, like any other leader, is liked by some and disliked by others. But you're wrong when you say the majority hate him. As a matter of fact, the majority like him. He's a symbol of the struggle for independence, as corrupt as he is. The majority of those who dislike Arafat are, for your information, the refugees. Why? Because he's for a two state solution. A two state solution means selling out the inalienable rights of all refugees to return to their 1948 homes. In other words, they don't feel represented by him and would hate him for that. When Arafat dies, you would be very lucky if you found a person who will express willingness to implement the two-state solution. Good luck.

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Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization: "Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."

A shaheed is someone who dies for his land. Some people will also say a shaheed is a martyr or someone that dies for both land and faith. When I was in highschool, my friend knew a guy who used to go to Palestine in the summer and fight the Israeli army. He used to come back bruised and scarred. He was seen as a very brave kid. We would feel envious. People would sometimes say "what am I doing here? I should go and join the shaheeds in their battle for liberation!" and we would all cheer for the brave. This is our mentality. It's actually no different from many other nationlist mentalities around the world. To become a patriot is a strong desire amongst many Arabs in the Middle East.

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*** Sig will be edited -> see rule #5 regarding political/religious content
Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization: "Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."

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Originally posted by Cyrus King You must be a big fucking idiot.. That really made me laugh. You speak of bias, yet you dont acknowledge that it was NARRATED by PRO-ISRAELI propaganda. For fuck sake, think before you type.

first of all dont you call me a fucking idiot for your unwillingess to understand what i've said. now i will try to explain this again. The clip, without the nerrartion! is enough to prove a thing about palestinian television. so what if the nerration was abit pro-israeli? that doest change the fact Arafat is calling on national tv for children to throw rocks on tanks. its a fact that those 2 girls in the clip Were interviewd on the national tv saying all those scary stuff, those 2 girls were not picked by an israeli for propaganda causes. all those clips and songs about "Shahada" are facts - you cant call it bias, its taken from palsetinian tv. The Natianaol palestinian channel played again and again the clip honoring the female suicide bomber! and you wont say its the Hizbulla or Hamas channel, its national tv. sad fact - you saw it in your own eyes, even if you dont wanna bbelieve a word of israeli nerration. and all you saying the "Shahid" and "Terrorist" is not the same, whatch that clip again, and see that they sing "but you choose Shada". The sacred act of Shada in Muslim religion, is turned and interpreted as suicide bombing attacks - by the national channel, face the truth. Also that religion leader calling for everyone to go blow themeslves up in Hadera, Tel-Aviv and Natanya is not an israeli propaganda and not an imagination of the nerrator - but its live fact, again taken from the national tv channel. "I will blow myself among the Jews"!.
you can not agree with the conclusion in the ending, but overall the nerration is respectful and doesnt uses stupid terms (not like in Palestians's Articles calling IDF , "The Israeli Occupation Army").
Finally, you can write watever you want, but video like this shawing only real clips, no one's imagination, no metter how its nerrated, it is the livest fact one can ask for.

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Originally posted by Palestinian A shaheed is someone who dies for his land. Some people will also say a shaheed is a martyr or someone that dies for both land and faith. When I was in highschool, my friend knew a guy who used to go to Palestine in the summer and fight the Israeli army. He used to come back bruised and scarred. He was seen as a very brave kid. We would feel envious. People would sometimes say "what am I doing here? I should go and join the shaheeds in their battle for liberation!" and we would all cheer for the brave. This is our mentality. It's actually no different from many other nationlist mentalities around the world. To become a patriot is a strong desire amongst many Arabs in the Middle East.

First Ill reply on Arrafat then on this,
If your symbol for struggle for your people which are mostly GOOD people is Arrafat, then I'm sorry to tell you that you want BAD things for your people.
Arrafat takes all the money given to him and keeps it, he only funds Hamas, Jihad, Fatach etc...
He doesnt care for anything releated to the people who live uner his administration.
If you say that people n Gaza Strip, Ramallah and Betlehem live as poorly as they do, 70 precent of that is caused by Arrafat.

Second, Ill repeat, you failed to convince me that Shahid is a legitimic thing among your colture, becuase quite simply, facts show that Shahids fight unconventinally using Bombs against innocent people, if they were truely men of honor and patriotism as you said, they would fight in conventional ways against a conventional army,
dont get me wrong war is not what I want.
But due to these facts I believe that Shahid means Suicide Bomber in our modern world, maybe in the past Islam days it meant an honorable warrior, because I know that Islam is a religion of peace.
They just took something that was honored like the first definition if Shahid and corrupted it by terror acts.
and dont you go on and tell me that they dont have weapons and shit becuase they do.
Iran is providing weapons for years and they are engineering sophsticated bombs that destroy lifes quite well.

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I never said Arafat wasn't corrupt. In fact, I said he was. The PA is extremely corrupt. But I also said something else. I will simply repeat what I said: He's a symbol of the struggle for independence, as corrupt as he is. The majority of those who dislike Arafat are, for your information, the refugees. Why? Because he's for a two state solution. A two state solution means selling out the inalienable rights of all refugees to return to their 1948 homes. In other words, they don't feel represented by him and would hate him for that. When Arafat dies, you would be very lucky if you found a person who will express willingness to implement the two-state solution.

Many Palestinians work in Israel but live in the West Bank. Since Israel closes the border off, those Palestinians cannot go to work and therefore live in poverty. Arafat's corruption isn't as dangerous as the Israeli occupation towards how poor the people are.

Ok, here is another lesson: It doesn't matter what way people fight for independence, whether be it moral or immoral, that person is considered a shahid amongst his/her people. Patriots all over the world didn't use moral ways all the time. Same goes for Palestinians. Using suicide bombers isn't the only way we fight. In fact, suicide bombers are the least used way of fighting the Israeli occupation. But due to our racist and corporate media, we barely hear about the many other ways of fighting as a shahid. You die for your country, doesn't matter how you died, you are a shahid. And Palestinians truly believe that. Americans believed the same thing during the war of independence. Many Loyalist civilians were killed by the patriots. You really need to wake up and understand that this is life. When people are at a war of independence, it's not very often that they think about "what is the morally correct way of fighting". Human's aren't like that, buddy. We're not angels.

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Originally posted by Palestinian Human's aren't like that, buddy. We're not angels.

thanks I'll quote you the next time you're giving us the image of innocent palestinians vs. bulldozer zionists

You can wrap your posts with all sorts of intelligent and sophisticated phrases which will make people think you are looking at the situation with a liberal mind, but the bottom line is that you justify the suicide bombing and you said it yourself.
If a Shahid will die in a battle field against an army, I would accept that, but if a coward puts 40 ponuds of dynamite and explodes himself amongst innocent people, thats not dying for his country or for struggle, thats for a silly superstition that says that he will go to heaven with 72 virgins.
And yes it does matter how you die, there are rules even when it comes to war.
And if you justify this coward way of fighting then I'm sorry to say you are no better than Arafat himself.

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I don't justify suicide bombing. I'm explaining to you how Palestinians feel. I don't think suicide bombers go to heaven. But others do.

If you really think that there are rules for a people in their fight for independence, then you're living a fantasy, as most zionists are. People don't care how they fight in such a situation. Anyway, I've made this point clear over and over in this forum. Keep living your fantasy.

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*** Sig will be edited -> see rule #5 regarding political/religious content
Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization: "Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."

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Originally posted by Scorchio he will go to heaven with 72 virgins.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/saturday_...,631332,00.html

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In Syriac, the word hur is a feminine plural adjective meaning white, with the word "raisin" understood implicitly. Similarly, the immortal, pearl-like ephebes or youths of suras such as LXXVI.19 are really a misreading of a Syriac expression meaning chilled raisins (or drinks) that the just will have the pleasure of tasting in contrast to the boiling drinks promised the unfaithful and damned. As Luxenberg's work has only recently been published we must await its scholarly assessment before we can pass any judgements. But if his analysis is correct then suicide bombers, or rather prospective martyrs, would do well to abandon their culture of death, and instead concentrate on getting laid 72 times in this world, unless of course they would really prefer chilled or white raisins, according to their taste, in the next.

What kind of person would kill themselves just to eat raisins?

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Last edited by DaveSZ on Nov-12-2003 at 18:46