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Originally posted by 'mju:zik I thought you said you studied this war?? A few things happened. Germany declared on 11 December, four days after Pearl Harbor, three days after the US & UK declared on Japan. A few days before that, Moscow was won. What is more interesting, however, is that Hitler (not exactly a great military mind) took control of his armed forces on the 19 December. Nearly all WWII historians view this point in History as the real turn in the war. IMO, he still could have won if he had a little luck and A LOT less ego (Stalingrad, among other things).

Let's see ... you said: "on a sidenote, it's interesting how much things turned around the week Germany declared war on the US, almost spooky really."

The battle of Moscow was the week before. The entry of the US into the war against Germany was merely cause and effect, and Hitler assuming command of the Eastern Front was a week afterwards. Therefore I fail to see the "spookiness" of that particular week. Furthermore, if you are referring to that week ... or even that month alone, none of the events of the month of December 1941 were a harbringer of imminent defeat for the Nazis. American interference in Europe would be negligible given a victory in the battle of the atlantic, the battle of Moscow was merely one out of three pronged thrusts into the east, and the German army was still structurally and tactically sound following the battle of moscow.

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These aren't even all the things that happened. But of course you know everything RIGHT?? you're TA's historian??

I find your feeble attempts at mockery to be amusing ... although admittedly it appears that something is lacking. I believe the problem is that your proportions are all wrong. Instead of 2 parts spite to 1 part sarcasm, try using 3 parts sarcasm to 1 part wit to 1 part spite. That should prove to be a more potent cocktail.

cheers.

btw, i thought our discussions on the moon were far more enjoyable.

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Originally posted by occrider The battle of Moscow was the week before.

what is your point?? read above, I said it was the week before.

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[The entry of the US into the war against Germany was merely cause and effect.

that has nothing to do with the fact that Hitler declared war on the US for no reason, and then proceeded to take major planning over from much greater military minds (Generals that studied these things, unlike him)

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Hitler assuming command of the Eastern Front was a week afterwards.

um again, what's your point?? You're just repeating what I said in my previous post.

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I find your feeble attempts at mockery to be amusing

great! so what are your arguments again?? you havent made any to disprove anything I said.

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Originally posted by 'mju:zik what is your point?? read above, I said it was the week before. that has nothing to do with the fact that Hitler declared war on the US for no reason, and then proceeded to take major planning over from much greater military minds (Generals that studied these things, unlike him) um again, what's your point?? You're just repeating what I said in my previous post. great! so what are your arguments again?? you havent made any to disprove anything I said.

Sigh, ok I'll play this tedious game with you. You originally said:

quote:

on a sidenote, it's interesting how much things turned around the week Germany declared war on the US, almost spooky really.

To which I replied:

"What? The battle of Moscow? Technically the week before ... but it was merely one decisive battle out of many on the eastern front. Nothing spooky that I can tell. "

In which you replied:

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I thought you said you studied this war??

Now then, what spooky things were you referring to the week that germany declared war on the US? What grandeoise turning points occured in that week?

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Last edited by occrider on Nov-13-2003 at 01:43

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Originally posted by 'mju:zik that has nothing to do with the fact that Hitler declared war on the US for no reason, and then proceeded to take major planning over from much greater military minds (Generals that studied these things, unlike him)

Yeah, right, no reason at all. And what about the huge supply aid that came from the americas? Without it, the brits would have lost the war.

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Originally posted by Trancer-X ... Under the current circumstances, that's definitely better than having more than half of them being ignoramuses. Given the great advances in communication since WWII, (notably the internet) the general public seems much more knowledgable and abreast of the facts than it's predecessors. In other words, it's much harder to pull the wool over their eyes.

I guess it's about a year ago, that a study indicated that over half the british population didn't know they were members of the EU. The same study indicated that 1-in-9 thought the United States was part of the EU.
Therefore, (although I agree that most of Bush's policies are bad, and that he is stupid beyond belief) I do not think that the reason 60% of Brits are opposed to Bush is due to any special lack of ignorance on their part. It must simply be Bush's charms which we europeans connect with.

Whatever the viewpoint people may have of G.W.Bush the bottom line is that America is a democracy and Bush will not be in power forever. So while the Europeans may be reviled by the policies of this current administration, too often it becomes a complete bashing of America. I am amused when I hear someone in Europe preach to Americans of how ignorant many Americans are, as though Europe was blessed with an endless supply of scholars. The U.S.A has always been at the side of Europe through good and bad, but the attitudes of many in Europe today are borderline blissed ignorance, it doesn't matter what is stated today by the U.S. as long as Europe can find a way to oppose it they will. So while the Eurocrats conduct their endless polls in which they ask what threatens world security and excludes the Palestinian nation because it is not a state, they include the E.U. (is that a state might I ask). I understand the frustrations with the Bush administration but a time will come when that Jackass will be out of power, the question is will Europe be any less anti-American, I do know one thing, a day will come when it shall be remembered that as Italy, Great Britain, Australia, helped the U.S in Iraq. The non-existence of France, Russia and Germany will be recalled, these nations are not required to send troops under any condition but economically they could have stepped up to the plate, to help rebuild Iraq. After all they truly care about the Iraqis right (how about forgiving the foreign debt accumulated under a tyrannical despot for starters). History is a funny thing, it can come back to bite you in the ass, ask America in its relations with these European nations.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Yeah, right, no reason at all. And what about the huge supply aid that came from the americas? Without it, the brits would have lost the war.

Just to add to your argument ...

As recalled by Ribbentrop, Germany's foreign minister:

"I told him (Hitler) that according to the stipulation of the Three-Power pact, since Japan had attacked, we would not have to declare war, formally. The Fuehrer thought this matter over quite a while and then he gave me a very clear decision, 'If we do not stand on the side of Japan,' he said, 'the Pact is politically dead. But that is not the main reason. The chief reason is that the United States already is shooting against our ships. They have been a forceful factor in this war and through their actions have already created a situation of war.' The Fuehrer was of the opinion at that moment that it was quite evident that the United States would now make war against Germany."


He was referring to Roosevelt's shoot on sight order against German warships in American waters on Sept. 11, 1941 after a German U-Boat had attempted to torpedo an American ship. There had been escalating naval clashes between the two sides since early 1941, and Doenitz was pushing Hitler to unleash unrestricted submarine warfare on the Americans. By that point, their ships were escorting British shipping up until the Atlantic midpoint.

With all the material resources already flowing to Britain and Russia, Hitler concluded that this was sooner or later going to devolve into a shooting war, and preferred he choose the time and place ... which is the main reason why he declared war after Pearl Harbor.

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Last edited by occrider on Nov-13-2003 at 18:54

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Originally posted by Dj O'Callaghan Whilst the war was on I was in London, and I walked past this girl with a banner shouting stuff, the war was on and British soldiers were getting killed so I said to her lose that fucking banner or I'll shove it up your fucking arse. That might sound harsh but whilst a wars on whether you agree or disagree you have to support the troops and think of the people who have lost their lives. And your last line that post, your refering to WW2 right? And your saying the Americans gave British people their freedom? If your saying what I think you are I suggest you stop speaking out of your fucking arse lad, the British fought for their OWN freedom! British Freedom was won in the Battle of Britain which was the start of a massive Blitzkreig, but it went tits up in the first phase contolling British airspace (The Battle of Britain) and after a serious defeat the Germans decided not to try and invade the UK. But I'm not saying America didn't help the UK they shipped over vital supplies etc, to keep the country running. I think anyone who wants to slag Britain off or the efforts in WW2 should shut the fuck up, realise this shitty little Island held out, whilst all the lands around it were occupied by the Nazis. I might of read what you said wrongly, however do you think it was only America who won WW2? Do you think of people from other countries who gave their lives so you can be free? See when people talk about WW2 it really pisses me off and I can take things the wrong way sometimes, but its because my grandad won lots of medals including the Miltary Medal, King Georges Cross (or whatever its called) and wasted 6 years of his life fighting for not only his freedom but everyone elses.

I totally agree with you on this post.

How can people say that Britain would have lost the war had it not have been for America, i aint saying that they didn't contribute, because they definately did, and i will always forever be grateful, but we british have something that allot of europeans or any other people dont understand, and that is the never say die attitude. I am proud to be British, and when the whole of Europe was in termoil, we stood strong. We won two wars against considerable odds. Also don't forget that if by chance Germany did invade England, then America would be next, and with America alone, and Germany + Japan together, i think we would have been living in a very different world to what we do today!

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Originally posted by TiestoFanMatt Also don't forget that if by chance Germany did invade England, then America would be next, and with America alone, and Germany + Japan together, i think we would have been living in a very different world to what we do today!

um I don't think so...

I think a nuke falling on Berlin would have discouraged Hitler from pursuing an offensive against the US.

Also, there is nothing to back up your theory about Britain winning the Western front by itself. If anything, the reds might have won it from the east, and in turn, saved Britain. No offence, but the UK was pretty much fucked.

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Originally posted by occrider Now then, what spooky things were you referring to the week that germany declared war on the US? What grandeoise turning points occured in that week?

Pearl Harbor, Hitler taking command, and the end of the battle of Moscow (a huuuuuge win), all occured WITHIN a week of the declaration. Again, there are a few other lesser known things that occurred, but since you claim you have "studied" this war, I figured I would give you a chance to enlighten us. sooo?? Still NOTHING??? I thought so. I'll give you another day or two mister knowitall.

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Originally posted by NYCTrancefan Whatever the viewpoint people may have of G.W.Bush the bottom line is that America is a democracy and Bush will not be in power forever. So while the Europeans may be reviled by the policies of this current administration, too often it becomes a complete bashing of America. I am amused when I hear someone in Europe preach to Americans of how ignorant many Americans are, as though Europe was blessed with an endless supply of scholars. The U.S.A has always been at the side of Europe through good and bad, but the attitudes of many in Europe today are borderline blissed ignorance, it doesn't matter what is stated today by the U.S. as long as Europe can find a way to oppose it they will. So while the Eurocrats conduct their endless polls in which they ask what threatens world security and excludes the Palestinian nation because it is not a state, they include the E.U. (is that a state might I ask). I understand the frustrations with the Bush administration but a time will come when that Jackass will be out of power, the question is will Europe be any less anti-American, I do know one thing, a day will come when it shall be remembered that as Italy, Great Britain, Australia, helped the U.S in Iraq. The non-existence of France, Russia and Germany will be recalled, these nations are not required to send troops under any condition but economically they could have stepped up to the plate, to help rebuild Iraq. After all they truly care about the Iraqis right (how about forgiving the foreign debt accumulated under a tyrannical despot for starters).

No I don't believe for a second that most of the politicans in France and Germany give a damn about the Iraqi people, but Iraq 2 is a political war and everyone took their stance on the war based mostly on their own economic, and in the case of Schroder, political interests. It also amuses me as well when Europeans accuse Americans of being "biased" (see "biased" thread hehe) when they are susceptible to the same types of bias found in their own media sources and governments. There's no such thing as a media source without bias. It just doesn't exist!!!!

All that being said, I'm hoping the Brits show Bush some of their famous hospitality, if you get my drift.

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Originally posted by 'mju:zik um I don't think so... I think a nuke falling on Berlin would have discouraged Hitler from pursuing an offensive against the US. Also, there is nothing to back up your theory about Britain winning the Western front by itself. If anything, the reds might have won it from the east, and in turn, saved Britain. No offence, but the UK was pretty much fucked.

You really have no evidence of what would have happened. A nuke...yes, maybe.

The uk was fucked through most of the war but we were always there still standing strong. Look what happened to Russia, they were pretty much fucked, but they marched right through to Berlin !