The Israelis are shooting at ambulances and kids.
The Palestinians are carrying out suicide attacks dressed up in civilian clothes.
The US-army is showing humiliating pictures of its prisoners of war - and even fails to grant all its prisoners this status in the first place.

Everybody is violating the Geneva-convention.

The Israelis are doing it because they cannot distinguish a terrorist from any other Palestinian. The Palestinians are doing it because they have no other way of fighting the occupation power. The US is doing it because it is vital to the fulfilment of their goals that they are perceived as victorious, and that resistance to the US is futile.

Unless you somehow believe that there are degrees of violation of the Geneva-conventions (in which case your measurement of violation must be subjective), you might as well accept that your heroes are equally bad.

quote:

Originally posted by Palestinian If you think that the natives of Canada put the past behind them, then you're dead wrong. As a matter of fact, they identify with the Palestinians and link the two tragedies together. It's funny that you mention that because in the coming month a Native speaker will be coming to York University to link the two conflicts. The fact that people still fight injustice after losing a war is a sign of strength. Palestinians are also fighting to exist. How would you like it if I told you to get over the Holocaust. They burned six million of you, so stop whining and get over it! How does that feel? Very painful, I'll bet.

As for the Natives here in Canada, stationary tribes like the Navajo didn't really get into too much trouble. It was the nomadic, territorial tribes like the Sioux that insisted on laying claim to ALL the land and, therefore, got into a war and a state of oppression. As much as it sucks for them to be in the position they're in, I don't think said Natives honestly think it would be legitimate to blow up Canadian military targets in order to get their land back. They tried to start a war with the colonists, they lost, and no matter how bitter they are, they know that they have to just deal with it.

I don't see how the holocaust has anything to do with this. We're talking about a localized military occupation, not a global killing spree. If all of the Arabs spontaneously decided to flee from Palestine, I hardly think the Jews in Israel would decide to chase them down and kill as many of them as possible, so please, don't try to liken this to the holocaust.

quote:

It is legitimate under International Law to kill Israeli soldiers.

Um? Okay, whatever you say. Care to find me the relevant excerpt?

quote:

And yes it is fair to brand the entire Israeli military. It is an oppressive and terrorist institution bent on genocide and ethnic cleansing. We have the right to kill and mutilate every one of them until they leave our land.

Holy sweeping generalizations, Batman. Palestinians and all other Arabs are all terrorists just waiting for their chance to kill more Jews until the entire race is exterminated. And once they're done with the Jews, they'll move to Americans and the rest of the western world. And the ones that haven't killed anyone or blown anything up yet are just biding their time or trying to raise enough money to buy some explosives. How's that for generalizing?

And yes, I was being facetious, I do not really believe this but I posted it to point out how utterly nonsensical your preceding post was. Considering that military service is mandatory for every Israeli citizen who is physically capable of it, you've essentially branded the entire Israeli population as terrorists, which is really no better than the hypothetical generalization I just made.

quote:

One more thing. You imply that we should accept that we lost the war and get over it. Well sure, we have tried to do that. We want Israeli citizenship and will accept it any day any time! But if Israel won't grant us citizenship because their fear of being the minority (and fear of democracy, essentially), then they're the ones who can't get over the results of the war.

Requesting Israeli citizenship does seem reasonable, but this is the first time I've ever heard of this request? Can you post a link to an article or something?

I have a problem with your posts, Palestinian. I don't think the violence on either side is justified, and I'm perfectly willing to concede that several Israeli soldiers have committed just as many acts of violence out of hate as the Palestinian terrorists. But you seem to be trying to tell us that the violence on part of the Palestinians is justified, whereas the violence on part of the Israelis is not. I'm not loving your selective morality, here, and in fact I think it's rather representative of the mentality down in the middle east - on the one hand, you claim you just want citizenship and/or peace, but on the other hand, you think all these killings are justified and wouldn't mind seeing them continued. There's no inherent logic in this viewpoint - it's just totally emotional and biased.

You kind of have to take your pick - do you want the violence to stop, or do you want them to keep killing each other?

You also appear to be assuming that I'm religiously Jewish and/or Zionist, which is not the case - I'm agnostic and don't claim any ties to Israel or the Middle East. I'm simply pointing out the hypocritical reactionism in your posts.

Oh and failsafe, I'm finished with you, your posts are full of personal opinion with no logic or foundation. You don't even listen to what other people have to say, every reply I get from you seems to be nothing more than an ad hominem attack. If you want to attack the validity of my arguments, fine, but if you're just going to attack me then you're just a waste of time.

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quote:

Originally posted by failsafe military objectives of Operation Enduring Freedom, as articulated by President George W. Bush in his Sept. 20th Address to a Joint Session of Congress and his Oct. 7th address to country, include the destruction of terrorist training camps and infrastructure within Afghanistan, the capture of al Qaeda leaders, and the cessation of terrorist activities in Afghanistan clearly you're not versed with american special forces tactics. The american SOG, and many other units operated in vietnamese clothing for nearly the entire war. Read up on the Pheionx program if you want a quick history on american violation of the geneva convetion. Torture, killing of civilans, blackmail, etc were every day occurances. In specific read up on "the bell telephone hour".

I'm not commenting on history of special operations, I'm referring to combat operations in Afghanistan/Iraq.

Article 37, paragraph 1, of the Additional Protocol to the Geneva Conventions of August 12, 1949, and relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts (Protocol I)[2]:

It is prohibited to kill, injure or capture an adversary and resort to perfidy. Acts inviting the confidence of an adversary to lead him to believe that he is entitled to, or is obliged to accord, protection under the rules of international law applicable in armed conflict, with intent to betray that confidence, shall constitute perfidy. The following acts are examples of perfidy: (a) the feigning of an intent to negotiate under a flag of truce or of a surrender; (b) the feigning of an incapacitation by wounds or sickness; (c) the feigning of civilian, non-combatant status; and (d) the feigning of protected status by the use of signs, emblems or uniforms of the United Nations or of neutral or other States not parties to the conflict.

So unless there is planned intent to attack in armed force it would not be a violation to say travel in civilian clothes or conduct covert surveillance operations in civilian clothes. Of course once one side begins throwing out the geneva conventions, the other side ultimately reciprocates as we can see in the whole Israeli/Pal affair.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut ... I have a problem with your posts, Palestinian. I don't think the violence on either side is justified, and I'm perfectly willing to concede that several Israeli soldiers have committed just as many acts of violence out of hate as the Palestinian terrorists. But you seem to be trying to tell us that the violence on part of the Palestinians is justified, whereas the violence on part of the Israelis is not. I'm not loving your selective morality, here, and in fact I think it's rather representative of the mentality down in the middle east - on the one hand, you claim you just want citizenship and/or peace, but on the other hand, you think all these killings are justified and wouldn't mind seeing them continued. There's no inherent logic in this viewpoint - it's just totally emotional and biased. ...

Thing is, he's in the defensive. Every other day there is a new anti-Palestine thread in this forum section - this one being a nice example. These threads all start with some article or another describing the latest hideous attack by some suicide bomber, bad government by Arafat, or similar. I cannot recall a similar thread blaming the opposite side (yet, an example can probably be found if you search for it).
When you are defending the actions of some part, as Palestinian is, then you are not supposed to justify those of the other part. After all, you are not seeing any of the regular pro-Israelis voicing understanding for the plight of the Palestinians either, are you?

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic Thing is, he's in the defensive. Every other day there is a new anti-Palestine thread in this forum section - this one being a nice example. These threads all start with some article or another describing the latest hideous attack by some suicide bomber, bad government by Arafat, or similar. I cannot recall a similar thread blaming the opposite side (yet, an example can probably be found if you search for it). When you are defending the actions of some part, as Palestinian is, then you are not supposed to justify those of the other part. After all, you are not seeing any of the regular pro-Israelis voicing understanding for the plight of the Palestinians either, are you?

Defensive or not, I don't like anyone condoning killing. The problem with the "Zionist" posters is that they whine about the Palestinian killings but manage to look the other way when the Israelis do it - however, that's a far cry from actually saying that the killings are justified!

Besides which, obviously the pro-Israelis are not going to voice understanding for the Palestinians, but posting inflammatory statements against them isn't going to help his cause. There are plenty of objective people here who are neither pro-Israeli nor anti-Israeli and who know that both sides have problems. That's the angle that would make sense to me.

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The Palestinians have a right to armed struggle against Israeli occupation. It is also a method of self defence. I do NOT justify attacks on Israeli civilians, but I do justify attacks on soldiers, who are a tool of death and oppression in Palestine.

Someone once posted that the pro Palestinian posters in the forums acknowledge the problems of the Palestinian cause, such as the murder of innocent Israeli civilians, while many pro-Israeli posters do not recognize the problems with Israel's actions. I just feel you should know that since you're new here.

You seem to fail to acknowledge that in this particular conflict there is the Occupier and the Occupied. They are not on the same level. Think about that for a minute, maybe you'll understand my point.

You say that we should just deal with the fact that we are under the longest military occupation of the last century. What I said about the Holocaust should have explained how rediculous you sound when you say that, but it didn't. The natives started a war with the colonists and lost. Well Diginut, what makes you think that the war the Palestinian started with the colonists has ended? There is no dealing with injustice, diginut. There is no dealing with occupation. We will 'deal with it' when the occupation ends and we are granted independence. I see your arguement as baseless and pointless.

Requesting Israeli citizenship was first proposed in 1969 by the DFLP, but dropped by both sides at that time for the unwillingness to coexist. I don't know when this proposal was revived but it has been a long time now, especially by those who did not favor Oslo and the two state solution, including the refugees. With the demographic time bomb ticking against Israel and the fall of Oslo and the Roadmap, a one state democratic solution is now in favor amongst many previously two state advocates, including some Israeli scholars. You can find much information on this. The issue is all over the activist community and was proposed by the PA just last week. A proposal to disolve the PA and demand the vote from Israel was put on the table. Check out http://electronicintifada.net/new.shtml for articles.

If Israeli citizens are required to do military service in the Occupied Territories, then that's a problem they have created. As long as Palestinians are concerned, when they are in uniform and in the territories, they are soldiers working to oppress the people. That's why the refusenik movement is on the rise within the IDF.

I'm not assuming that you're Jewish or Zionist, but for you to put the Occupier and the Occupied on the same level disturbs me and would disturb ANY person who sympathizes with the Palestinian cause and even those who are neutral and objective.

quote:

I'm not loving your selective morality, here, and in fact I think it's rather representative of the mentality down in the middle east

This is a racist comment. I'm the one that should be finished with you.

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digi: navajo's are an american tribe not canadian. If you're going to try and come of as an expert at least get the basics right.

a few tribes that were in ontario/quebec

sioux/cree/mohawk/ojibiway/huron/etc

occrider: The activities of special forces never is on the front page news. The stuff about vietnam has just come to light in the last decade or so. I'm sure 20 years from now we'll be hearing about the particulars of the geneva convetion that the americans are breaking in afghanistan and iraq. As as the picture of american soliders riding around afghanistan with some form of turban on and local clothing running search and destroy missions. You come to your own conclusions.

quote:

Originally posted by failsafe occrider: The activities of special forces never is on the front page news. The stuff about vietnam has just come to light in the last decade or so. I'm sure 20 years from now we'll be hearing about the particulars of the geneva convetion that the americans are breaking in afghanistan and iraq. As as the picture of american soliders riding around afghanistan with some form of turban on and local clothing running search and destroy missions. You come to your own conclusions.

Perhaps. I suppose time shall tell.

well, after reading every single post over the last 45 minutes, i thought ide drop in on the discussion.

I happen to sympathize on the Israeli side of things, but I also understand the Palistinean side too. But, there is one thing that both sides actually come into agreeance to! and that is, they both want peace! of course thats easy to understand, and come to, but neither side can come into any agreement of how to attain this peace. It is understood that Palistine wants their own government formed, and all their territory restored. My question goes to the Israeli side. Why not restore the pre-196(?) borders. before the arab war happened.....and help the Palistineans by withdrawing from that land, jewish settlements and all, and letting the palistineans take care of their own issues. and letting the jews take care of theirs.

I say, make a deadline for withdrawal, such as a year. restore the original borders...even though there might be land you want to keep, so what, you want peace or more bloodshed is my response. israel might even be able to help the palistineans by helping them achieve stability as they themselves are trying to achieve. official apologies should be made by both sides, and a treaty of goodwill signed. thereafter, both sides should show their goodwill, through whatever means is necessary to sustain their peace.
i dont believe this will ever be achieved during my lifetime, and im only 16.....

but aa. the attitudes being shown by both sides is untolerable. palistineans keep suicide bombing, isrealis keep launching incursions into the palistinean territory. both sides add into this conflict. each suicide bombing adds more conflict. each israeli incursion adds to the conflict. nothing can be made out of these actions. there is no excuse for suicide bombings, no matter what the situation is. think about, what if the palistineans took the initiative, and began showing signs, real signs i mean, that they really want peace. ceasing of suicide bombings, the distruction of the islamic terrorist groups, which are sorry excuses for anything but conflict. israel would most likely get the message, especially from international pressure, borders, might be restored, new gov't formed. thats one way of putting it.

but in conclusion. its really isreal who should take the initiative in that they are the strongest nation of the two by far.

1. Withdraw from Palistinean territory
2. Help to form new gov't of palistine
3. Stay out of Palistinean politics
4. Restore pre-arab war borders
5. Isreal stick to Isreal, Palistine stick to Palistine
6. Goodwill treaties signed.

Then the islamic terrorist groups would therefore be useless, for isreal would no longer be "oppressing the Palistinean people". therefore, they would lose public support, b/c the conflict is over. both sides have peace, abd they would be viewed as nothing more than trouble-makers trying to thwart the peace, as they do now, with every peace attempt. they try to thwart it before it starts.

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Last edited by Krypton on Jan-18-2004 at 06:17

........occrider isnt new. look at his registration date. also, ive seen at least 50 of his posts, there must be something wrong with your rank occ, cause your not an addict in training...

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There really is no easy answer to this whole mess.