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TranceAddict Forums > Local Scene Info / Discussion / EDM Event Listings > Canada > Canada - Toronto & Southern Ont. > McGuinty + Photo Radar = Grand Theft
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rabbitjoker
aural sadist



Registered: Aug 2002
Location: Toronto, ON, CANADA
Evil1

Repeat after me:

damn liberals...


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Old Post Jan-16-2004 01:17  Canada
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Rocco
PierreM



Registered: Mar 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada

quote:
Originally posted by Swamper
meh. Speeding by itself is not the enemy.

The difficulty lies in classifying those who speed with those who drive recklessly/carelessly - there is some crossover of course - but they do not go hand in hand as is often assumed.

For instance, yesterday the weather was beyond nasty - yet there was some mofo in his wannabe 4x4 (sidekick) flying going about 110 on the highway and then he had to brake and he skidded sideways for a bit across 2 lanes (on the 400) before regaining control.. everyone else was going at about 70.. I'd much rather have them (and tailgaters) / drivers who cut others off / drivers who hog the left lane given fines than someone on a clear stretch of road going over the speed limit.


Del don't get me started. The whole damn system is flawed. Starting with the way they give out licences all the way to the way they prosecute a serial killer/rapist... WE need to revise all the laws. I can kill someone now and spend 4 years in prison rather than life... i can rape anyone and get like 1 year and some community service.. comeon now. I speed and not get my licence suspeded? If u want to apply rules, apply STRICT rules. I totally agree with u.


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Old Post Jan-16-2004 01:39  Egypt
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Matt
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Nov 2001
Location: Toronto, Canada

quote:
Originally posted by rabbitjoker
Repeat after me:

damn liberals...


could be worse *cough*Tories*cough*


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Old Post Jan-16-2004 01:44  Canada
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rabbitjoker
aural sadist



Registered: Aug 2002
Location: Toronto, ON, CANADA

quote:
Originally posted by Mosaic
could be worse *cough*Tories*cough*


touche!


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Old Post Jan-16-2004 01:52  Canada
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DigiNut
You kids get off my lawn!



Registered: Dec 2002
Location: Toronto, Self-proclaimed Centre of the Universe

Alright, a few things need to be clarified here:

1. What "speeding" means
First and foremost, when we use the term "speeding" to hint at reckless driving, we are referring to the act of driving too fast for the particular driving conditions. In this weather, 80 would probably be too fast for safety. In the middle of the summer when there's light traffic and road conditions are perfect, half the people could easily be going at 150-200 km/h and not get into any accidents.

However, as a general rule, traffic engineers say that the 85th percentile should be used to set speed limits. That means the speed that 85 percent of drivers would be going under during normal conditions. Roads in most of Ontario are set at the 50th percentile. Highways are set as low as the 10th percentile. Speed limits on highways used to be higher, but the government decided that they were not generating enough revenue and decided to lower them.

When we redefine "speeding" so literally as "going over the speed limit", it no longer makes any sense to say that it causes collisions. They try to prove by statistical correlation that people who speed get into more accidents, but correlation means nothing - by that logic, you could set the speed limit at 1 km/h, and say that every single accident is caused by speeding. Realistically, the accidents are caused by tailgaters, lane hoppers, and believe it or not, people who drive too slow.

Someone mentioned the Autobahn in Germany - that is one of the safest highways in the world, and yet it has no posted speed limit. Why is it so safe? Because people drive courteously, in particular, slow drivers stay in the slow lanes so fast drivers can get where they want to go as fast as they want to get there. No road rage, no problems.

2. Due Process
To be perfectly clear on what this is: An established course for judicial proceedings or other governmental activities designed to safeguard the legal rights of the individual.

We have an established judicial system for dealing with legal issues. And to be perfectly blunt, the concept of photo radar is a complete denial of due process. Why? Let's see...

1) There is absolutely no direct evidence (a witness). In a real trial for a criminal charge, a photo with machine readings would hardly hold up as proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

2) One cannot be expected to clearly remember the events surrounding an occurrence that took place 2 or 3 weeks ago. It's unfairly difficult to form a proper legal defense.

3) This is even a problem without the photo radar, but the system is set up in every way to make it as inconvenient as possible for you to actually go to trial, thereby forcing people to just pay out of court. People are not properly informed of their rights when they receive tickets.

3. Positive Effects
Whether or not you believe it, the speeding ticket system has never done anything to improve road safety. If anything, it increases road rage due to drivers who go far too slow. I'm too lazy to google the studies right now but if you read studies done by traffic engineers (i.e. not government-sponsored), you'll see that speeding ticket systems, especially photo radar, do not work as people might expect.

Why? Well, mainly because half of the real reckless drivers know that photo radar tickets can't hold up in court as they can rarely prove who was actually driving the car. There are also lots of other legal reasons why they won't stand, but I won't get into that now. The other reason is, since people don't get their ticket until weeks later, they're not going to know to slow down until then. It's also been shown that even though people might slow down for a while, they eventually resume their normal driving habits when they start to feel "safe". And, once again, even if people do slow down, that means nothing in terms of road safety, because people can still be jackasses on the road while going under the speed limit, and in certain conditions, even the posted speed is still far too high for the conditions.

To put it simply, the system doesn't work, despite all the government propaganda that tries to claim that it really does help traffic. If they truly wanted people to slow down, why not make the speed traps obvious and legalize radar detectors? Ask anyone what they'd do if they knew they were coming close to a speed trap, they'll tell you, slow down!! The sole purpose of unmarked patrol cars and photo radar is to make money, not out of concern for safety.

To summarize: As a province, the easiest cash grab is to:
1. Set speed limits just below the average driver's tolerance, so they have to speed.
2. Set fines just below the average driver's tolerance, so it's not worth their time to go to court over it.
3. Ignore all relevant law (such as having to spot speeders by eye before radaring them) in order to set up streamlined "speed traps" to catch the maximum number of people.
4. Make it as difficult as possible for people to dispute their tickets by shortening court office hours, setting very short intervals to file claims, and refusing to set trial dates by mail or phone. AND...
5. Manipulate, skew, and distort the traffic statistics in order to show that the system actually improves road safety.

All I can say to this is, if he does get photo radar back on the streets (God I hope not), then the most important thing is:

DISPUTE YOUR TICKETS!!

It's been shown that something like 3% of tickets are actually disputed, and the courts are already clogged. If everybody took their tickets to court, the entire system would collapse. The financial profitability of the speeding ticket system depends on all of the out-of-court settlements. But considering the insurance policies in Ontario, trust me, $100 isn't all you'll pay for a small speeding ticket.

That is all.


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Old Post Jan-16-2004 02:00  Canada
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Samalet
tranceaddict



Registered: Nov 2003
Location: Mississauga/Windsor, On

Speeding tickets generate ninety something percent of the total revenue from tickets as a whole. our guv. neeeeeds those money, that’s why we have such relatively low fines. They want you to speed AFTER you got your ticket. take another example: fine for no insurance is 5k. you can see clearly that anyone will think twice before driving without insurance.

Another thing regarding where the problem is.. Have you considered elderly? those who cant see/hear/move and STILL HAVE THEIR VALID DRIVERLICENCE THAT THEY GOT 80 YEARS AGO!!! for those kind of people hiway speeds IS a big problem, and im not even talkin about reckless drivers...

And by the way, as far as i know tickets sent to you by the mail may not be paid, as you aren't forced by any law to check your mail.

Old Post Jan-16-2004 02:02  Ukraine
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mute79
..:culture vulture:..



Registered: Feb 2001
Location: in transit

weren't they gonna increase the speed limits to 120km/h? w/e happend with that?

Old Post Jan-16-2004 02:23  Serbia
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reverieX2
Senior tranceaddict



Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Toronto

guys! guys! its all good! as long as they don't put a super cd tax out that'll stop me from buyin tunes to blast while i'm speedin down streets with out the radars does it really matter?


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Old Post Jan-16-2004 04:23  Canada
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failsafe
dirty numb angel boy



Registered: Jan 2001
Location: YYZ (finally)

they mail out your taxes and you have to pay them. I can't see you getting away with it because you don't check your mail.

Old Post Jan-16-2004 04:33 
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Fir3start3r
Armin Acolyte



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Toronto, ON, Canada

quote:
Originally posted by Samalet
And by the way, as far as i know tickets sent to you by the mail may not be paid, as you aren't forced by any law to check your mail.


HAHAHHAHAHAHA!!! Good one....

Good luck renewing your S T I C K E R


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Old Post Jan-16-2004 05:12  Canada
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Samalet
tranceaddict



Registered: Nov 2003
Location: Mississauga/Windsor, On

im pretty sure that as of right now in ontario police officer HAS to hand in you a ticket personaly, the only exception is a parking ticket.

Old Post Jan-16-2004 05:40  Ukraine
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failsafe
dirty numb angel boy



Registered: Jan 2001
Location: YYZ (finally)

what about the red light cameras, it's the same thing man. same with parking tickets. if it was that easy everyone would have already done it.

Old Post Jan-16-2004 07:00 
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TranceAddict Forums > Local Scene Info / Discussion / EDM Event Listings > Canada > Canada - Toronto & Southern Ont. > McGuinty + Photo Radar = Grand Theft
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