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Originally posted by Magnetonium As for kidnapping people for ransom and/or taking people for slave labour - Chechens have generally been doing that since 1815. Just read a book (forgot the name) by great Russian author, Tolstoy, and he can describe his experiences. Even in the 1980s rebel gang members would travel across Soviet Union, select and capture people for slave labour.

I believe the title of the book to which you were referring is "Hadji Murad". I remember reading it as well (although several years ago) when I was working on gettubg a part in a production of "Anna Karenina" (I didn't get the part, oh well ). But I do remember that it was a very detailed, gruesome story, the kind one wants to stop reading, but can't put it down until the end.

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ya neva know!

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The perestroika should have been done in a way the chinese are transforming their country now, slow and controled. If a regime is built on a tight rule and limited personal freedom, sudden introduction of a free society causes anarchy.

I have to disagree, the Chinese government has no intention of handing over power or reforming, they foolishly think that having a stock market will keep their people pacified. They will be proved wrong.

The era of the Soviet Union had come to an end and the russian leadership by and large dismantled their empire and gave their subjects their liberty without bloodshed. There was no Tiannenmen Square in the Soviet Union. By and large Soviet Union military commanders refused to carry out orders which would result in civilian casualties.

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the Soviet Union would now be an existing and possibly prosperous country

The Soviet Union was doomed and the russian leadership knew it which was why it was dissolved. The citizens of the Soviet republics by and large had no love for the Soviet Union system and the russians were not prepared anymore to pay the bloodprice of controlling an empire of hostile subjects.

I would imagine that in the years to come that Russia will reassert control over the former republics in the form of an economic union in much the same way as Germany and France dominate Europe through the EU.

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It was all Brezhnev's fault, he was the idiot who ruined the Soviet economy and didn't know a thing about politics (pretty much) during his rule in 60s and 70s.

Brezhnev was just a creature of his environment. The blame for the disaster that befell Eastern Europe lies with the system itself and the people who created it: Lenin and Stalin.

I doubt any country could emerge without social scars from the mass murder of 20 million innocent people by Stalin during the 30's, the millions of people who were starved to death right from the inception of the Soviet Union as well as the 27 million killed in the war.

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Originally posted by rupert The era of the Soviet Union had come to an end and the russian leadership by and large dismantled their empire and gave their subjects their liberty without bloodshed. There was no Tiannenmen Square in the Soviet Union. By and large Soviet Union military commanders refused to carry out orders which would result in civilian casualties.

You must be joking, right?! The bolded text, that is ... Only during the putch did the troops refuse to shoot innocent civilians who were blocking the tanks in Moscow (1991 communist end). Otherwise - Afghanistan in 80s, Chechnya in 50s, West Ukraine in late 1940s, Estonia / East Poland in 1930s >>> all examples when soviet troops were ordered (and followed them) to gather and shoot all civilians (numbered in thousands at times), especially women and children. I remember reading books about west ukraine insurgence after world war 2 when they wanted independence - soviet red armies in some cases burned WHOLE villages down to the ground with ALL people in them to discourage the partisans.

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Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

No, you misinterpret me. I only refer to the dismantling of the Soviet Union during the Gorbachev era, not during its heyday of its empire. The Red Army was during its time responsible for the murder of millions of its subjects but at its end the Red Army commanders did not have the stomach for social repression.

At the end to my knowledge there were only a few isolated incidents of violence by the Red Army against citizens of the Soviet Union, the murder of civilians at a television station in Lithuania (from recollection)coming to mind.

Usually when empires collapse the military and forces loyal to the dictatorship holds on to power to the bitter end causing a vicious civil war.

The Soviet Union did not intervene when the Warsaw Pact countries decided to abandon it, indeed many of the regimes such as in East Germany looked to the Soviet Union leadership for support in cracking down on their local unrest and they did not get it from the Soviet Union.

The Soviet Union ended with a whimper not a bang, it could have ended in the death of millions in the scramble for power but it was partioned peacefully. The violence in the former Soviet Union was by and large between ethnic minorities scrambling for power in the vacuum Azerbaijan, Armenia, Georgia, Ingushetia, Chechnya etc not from the Red army.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Russia suppose to be able to exploite its natural resorces esp. in the area of Siberia (off-shore oil drilling) in less then 12 years? I see this as a big circle though, because almost guarenteed that money is not going to go for social programs, but just funneled back into the military, space program, etc.... Especially is the Chechneya crises reaches a new peak in fighting. Only if somehow, by the time they exploite these natural resources, the Chechnen conflict is settled (highly doubtful) do I see any flicker of hope for Russia to re-build. I like that statement that is Chechneya is a success, it will have built a model to follow for the gaining of independance.

I also don't see a strong amount of help coming from France and Germany. Just talking to some of the people in my city (Hamburg), I still see the many many stereotypes and hatred for Russia.

edit: Forgot to say, very interesting thread!

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Originally posted by rupert The Soviet Union ended with a whimper not a bang, it could have ended in the death of millions in the scramble for power but it was partioned peacefully. The violence in the former Soviet Union was by and large between ethnic minorities scrambling for power in the vacuum Azerbaijan, Armenia, Georgia, Ingushetia, Chechnya etc not from the Red army.

Trust me, I know, and my father knows BETTER - cause he fought in the Afghanistan war in the 80s for over a year - Red Army was very much feared cause of its brutality especially when it suffered casualties. My dad recalls his squad (but he himself was a driver, so he didnt participte) lining up all men in some unrestful village where his squad lost couple tanks and couple dozen troops in a battle, and shooting them all. Then they used these shoulder-carrying "vacuum" rocket launchers that were capable of "clearing everything" inside any building (cant find ann english name for the weapon - not a bazooka though) to eliminate the remaining small pockets of resistance. If it wasnt for the Americans, the Soviets would've probably won the war.

There is a well known Russian musician, Igor Tal'kov, who criticized communists in his music during early 90s (for which he lost his life after one of his concerts), and he pretty much drscribed it all very well ... in one song some of the lyrics go like (translation by me) >>> "show me a country where soldiers are forced to shoot women and children", "show me a country where AHEAD means GO BACK and opposite", "show me a country where churches are shut dead and where a priest hides underneath his robe a KGB uniform", and "don't turn the globe, you wont find it, on the planet Earth there is no country like that - except the one in which you all dont live anymore, dont live, because you can't call that living [song written after Soviet collapse]", etc. etc.

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Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture