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Originally posted by occrider Libertarian

Libertarianism cant work, it's too close to anarchy. Besides, most people want to be ruled, and many people NEED to be ruled, and libertarianism doesn't provide the social framework for this signifigant portion of the population.

Also of note, are there any ACTUAL libertarian governments, has the philosophy ever been put to the test, anywhere, EVER. Good politics isn't about idealism, it's about what WORKS with ACTUAL HUMAN BEINGS.

Feudalism is the closest to the natural order of things, which is why it endured for so long. It stood for many centuries, as a viable method of social/political rule.

In the US, our super elite, the corporate nobility that is, control a vast portion of the wealth in this country, which is not unlike the Feudal context. We replaced kings with presidents and nobles with corporate executives. The names may have changed, but the structure remains the same. AND GUESS WHAT! THIS SYSTEM WORKS. The Socio/Economic balance of feudalism has worked since the dawn of civilization.

Libertarianism will fail, because it WONT uphold the socio/economic balance of feudalism. It doesn't exercise enough POWER, and any society that doesn't properly wield power comes to ruin.

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NO, we aren't. When the federal government cuts taxes & spending, the states and counties have to make up the slack. Our government is slacking off by bribing people with tax cuts.

Assuming that the tax cuts aren’t financed by the national deficit (which most of it is) at the expense of state funding than yes this would be the case. I’m not sure if you’re working yet, but from my own paycheck, I can guarantee you that the tax cuts I received from in federal taxes were NOT made up in a matching increase in state/local taxes.

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II : Tax Cuts DO NOT increase revenue to the treasury. I sorry to offend anyone, but I do not SMOKE CRACK.

Correct. They should be used as a tool for economic stimulus only unless your desire is to limit the size of government in total. One cannot maintain tax cuts while keeping spending constant and expect to profit from the deal. If you wish to stimulate the economy while remaining fiscally sound then decrease taxes during recession and increase taxes in times of boom.

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III : The GDP is tied to revenues, and tax cuts DO NOT spur economic growth.

Huh?

GDP
Gross Domestic Product. The total market value of all final goods and services produced in a country in a given year, equal to total consumer, investment and government spending, plus the value of exports, minus the value of imports. The GDP report is released at 8:30 am EST on the last day of each quarter and reflects the previous quarter. Growth in GDP is what matters, and the U.S. GDP growth has historically averaged about 2.5-3% per year but with substantial deviations. Each initial GDP report will be revised twice before the final figure is settled upon: the "advance" report is followed by the "preliminary" report about a month later and a final report a month after that. Significant revisions to the advance number can cause additional ripples through the markets. The GDP numbers are reported in two forms: current dollar and constant dollar. Current dollar GDP is calculated using today's dollars and makes comparisons between time periods difficult because of the effects of inflation. Constant dollar GDP solves this problem by converting the current information into some standard era dollar, such as 1997 dollars. This process factors out the effects of inflation and allows easy comparisons between periods. It is important to differentiate Gross Domestic Product from Gross National Product (GNP). GDP includes only goods and services produced within the geographic boundaries of the U.S., regardless of the producer's nationality. GNP doesn't include goods and services produced by foreign producers, but does include goods and services produced by U.S. firms operating in foreign countries.
http://www.investorwords.com/2153/GDP.html

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IV : Every major recession in since Carter has been tied to gasoline prices, PERIOD. During recessions our government fails to compensate by RAISING TAXES & CUTTING SPENDING, which is what WILL balance the budget during recessions. I didn't say the people have to LIKE IT, it's about what is RESPONCIBLE, and a RESPONCIBLE government pays it's bills.

Kind of like what Hoover did in the 30’s?

http://www.cato.org/pubs/tbb/tbb-0303-14.pdf

But let’s follow the market forces for a second. In a time of a recession if a balanced budget doctrine is used, as deficits are eliminated several economic factors are going to occur. The value of the dollar will rise and the risk of inflation will lower. However, the rise in the dollar will only help to discourage export growth as US goods become more expensive abroad. Similarly, imports will become cheaper and, as a result, we’ll see a growing trade deficit as money flows out of the country. One could stipulate that a balanced budget would attract foreign investment however, what foreign investor is going to invest in a recessionary economy? So ultimately you haven’t really stimulated consumption or growth. There have been a countless number of times whereby the exact opposite approach of deficit spending to stimulate economic growth has been used to lift the economy out of a recession.



I’ll reply to your system of control later since that’s an entirely different discussion from economics

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Originally posted by Verona^My Libertarianism cant work, it's too close to anarchy. Besides, most people want to be ruled, and many people NEED to be ruled, and libertarianism doesn't provide the social framework for this signifigant portion of the population. Also of note, are there any ACTUAL libertarian governments, has the philosophy ever been put to the test, anywhere, EVER. Good politics isn't about idealism, it's about what WORKS with ACTUAL HUMAN BEINGS. Feudalism is the closest to the natural order of things, which is why it endured for so long. It stood for many centuries, as a viable method of social/political rule. In the US, our super elite, the corporate nobility that is, control a vast portion of the wealth in this country, which is not unlike the Feudal context. We replaced kings with presidents and nobles with corporate executives. The names may have changed, but the structure remains the same. AND GUESS WHAT! THIS SYSTEM WORKS. The Socio/Economic balance of feudalism has worked since the dawn of civilization. Libertarianism will fail, because it WONT uphold the socio/economic balance of feudalism. It doesn't exercise enough POWER, and any society that doesn't properly wield power comes to ruin.

You seem dishonest by your glossing over of the "why" there exists no full blown "libertarian" governments. Not only do you put on the playing field binary logic but you discount by lack of mention the obvious reason that those with the power don't exactly feel compelled to relenquish it for the good of all.

As much as you would liken our society to an ancient "proven" one it just does not seem that way. Again you apply binary logic to the situation saying somebody either exists as wealthy or poor. Our system has fostered the growth of a middle class, which was largely non-existant in feudal societies you speak of but never directly reference.

Progression towards a new "untried" boundary halted simply because of its untested status seems rash. Maybe you happen to be right, libertarianism may not answer all of our society's problems, then again, neither does the current state of affairs. If you'd stop looking at the extremes you'd realize there exists middle ground, instead, you appear to busy polarizing the issue.

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Venus: And there are troops of savage giraffes whose necks are on fire, like the starry ejaculations of fireworks in the very pale sky of childhood ... Venus: Enter, enter here - men of all kinds and races, victims of reality! You who have the thirst for dreams. ... Venus: You, on life's bitter road, drenched in hard sunlight who have the thirst that once more the dark marvel of dreams...