Well, the reason I picked on France is because someone asked why Americans hate the France. It's interesting to note that American's coalition outside of the UN was "bribed," but if France wants an "international coalition" outside of the UN its peachy.

Also, what about when *not* doing anything leads to loss of life, war and military build-up? Suicide bombing/Isreali killings in Isreal, or concentration camps during WWII, or ethnic cleansing in Bosnia, or killings and toture in Iraq. There comes a point where you have to act, and not sit around watching people get killed or their human rights destroyed. I'm not willing to sit around and watch people die so I can feel good about using peaceful, diplomatic channels. France is infamous for this and the rest of Europe is starting to follow in their footsteps. It's nice to see that both WWI and WWII have taught Europe absolutely nothing...lets just sit around a talk while shit happens and hope everything works out in the end.

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Originally posted by NeoPhono Well, the reason I picked on France is because someone asked why Americans hate the France. It's interesting to note that American's coalition outside of the UN was "bribed," but if France wants an "international coalition" outside of the UN its peachy. Also, what about when *not* doing anything leads to loss of life, war and military build-up? Suicide bombing/Isreali killings in Isreal, or concentration camps during WWII, or ethnic cleansing in Bosnia, or killings and toture in Iraq. There comes a point where you have to act, and not sit around watching people get killed or their human rights destroyed. I'm not willing to sit around and watch people die so I can feel good about using peaceful, diplomatic channels. France is infamous for this and the rest of Europe is starting to follow in their footsteps. It's nice to see that both WWI and WWII have taught Europe absolutely nothing...lets just sit around a talk while shit happens and hope everything works out in the end.

"Peace for our time! Go home and get a nice quiet sleep."

- Good old Neville

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Retro ...

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Originally posted by Yoepus must.. MUST.. must... muST .. must restrain myself..

let it all out friend !!!

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Best Album Ever:
* Infected Mushroom - B.P.Empire

//Start Mindless Generilazation
I like Europeans for the most part. Except frenchies they always surrender, and they need to shower and shave more.

I also like Germans because they have funny dots over there letters. And there totally crazy.

Also I love Italians because they invented pizza and ice cream.

//End Mindless Generilazation

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Originally posted by NeoPhono What I'm saying is that Europe has become a continent of little action and a lot of talk.

Shoot first, ask later...

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Iraq disobeys UN policies

So do the US...

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I think on the other hand Americans are the eternal "realists," and that's where many of the problems between the US and Europe come from. Japan bombs Pearl Harbor, we attack. Terrorists fly planes into our buildings, we attack. Somebody decides to go against the UN or our ideals of civility, we attack. I'm not saying that we won't try diplomacy first, but we are in no way afraid to take *real* action when lines of communication become pointless.

So, attacking is realistic...

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It's nice to see that both WWI and WWII have taught Europe absolutely nothing...lets just sit around a talk while shit happens and hope everything works out in the end

Such a bullshit!!!! That is the reason why 'we' try to negotiate! In WWI people went to the battlefields thinking going to picnic and return in max 2 weeks as heroes.
But with WW2 you are partly right! But this was a special case..! Europeans were afraid of a second great war and the horrible experiences from WWI whereas the US never experienced the cruelties of wars in their own country (except the civil war)!

quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono Well, the reason I picked on France is because someone asked why Americans hate the France. It's interesting to note that American's coalition outside of the UN was "bribed," but if France wants an "international coalition" outside of the UN its peachy.

Pretty sure international coalition = UN.

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Originally posted by NeoPhono Also, what about when *not* doing anything leads to loss of life, war and military build-up? Suicide bombing/Isreali killings in Isreal, or concentration camps during WWII, or ethnic cleansing in Bosnia, or killings and toture in Iraq. There comes a point where you have to act, and not sit around watching people get killed or their human rights destroyed.

Iraqis and especially Americans have been dying more than before we went in. There was no military build in Iraq, shit even their MIGs saw zero action Israel is not the US and they can take care of them selfs, or did you forget when they took up Iraq's Nuclear power plant site? We are not sending them billions just for nothing. Oh hey Bosnia, wasn't the reactionary right against it? And isnt the radical christian saying that Milosevic was right and should be honored as a hero for killing those dirty muslims? You know I am all for going into a country and saving people as long as its what you tell the people, not some lie to get the country to go along with it. Try doing a survey in America and ask "Would you go to War to save some Jews in Israel or some Arabs in Iraq" I bet the majority would say no!

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Originally posted by NeoPhono I'm not willing to sit around and watch people die so I can feel good about using peaceful, diplomatic channels.

You're at moment sitting around.

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Originally posted by NeoPhono France is infamous for this and the rest of Europe is starting to follow in their footsteps. It's nice to see that both WWI and WWII have taught Europe absolutely nothing...lets just sit around a talk while shit happens and hope everything works out in the end.

And I am glad Vietnam has thought us nothing as well.

Clearly there is an appropriate balance between the two. We've seen some of the more catastrophic failures of inaction perpetrated by Europe throughout the past century and we've clearly seen the failures of American overreaction. Neither in itself can be said to be the "correct" approach.

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Retro ...

First of all, Vietnam taught us something about France that was already extremely well known: The French DO NOT know how to fight! They couldn't punch their way out of a paper bag!

(ah yes, a lovely stereotype that'll surely get Jean Claude Van Damme unleashed on my punk-ass).

Second, while the UN is certainly an important organization, saying that your foreign policy needs to ultimately be dictated by some defunct, beaurocratic organization (i.e. you must ask for permission to defend yourself) is simply foolish talk. If somebody breaks into your house and is about to attack your children, do you politely ask them to please wait until you can get the OK from Interpol to step in and defend your children?

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Originally posted by occrider Clearly there is an appropriate balance between the two. We've seen some of the more catastrophic failures of inaction perpetrated by Europe throughout the past century and we've clearly seen the failures of American overreaction. Neither in itself can be said to be the "correct" approach.

Agree.

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Originally posted by Shakka First of all, Vietnam taught us something about France that was already extremely well known: The French DO NOT know how to fight! They couldn't punch their way out of a paper bag!

Who cares about the French, we still had no reason to bother with Vietnam.

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Originally posted by Shakka (ah yes, a lovely stereotype that'll surely get Jean Claude Van Damme unleashed on my punk-ass).

LOL

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Originally posted by Shakka Second, while the UN is certainly an important organization, saying that your foreign policy needs to ultimately be dictated by some defunct, beaurocratic organization (i.e. you must ask for permission to defend yourself) is simply foolish talk. If somebody breaks into your house and is about to attack your children, do you politely ask them to please wait until you can get the OK from Interpol to step in and defend your children?

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Originally posted by rizo UN RESOLUTION! NOT US RESOLUTION! Where are the 200-500 Tons of mustard gas and chemical weapons?

While I am all for defending yourself, Saddam possed a zero threat. When China starts invading Hawaii, please let me know and I'll be the first to sign up.

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Originally posted by Eye-Q Shoot first, ask later...

I think if you read my post you'd see that I said *after* diplomacy fails or shows itself to be ineffective action is needed.

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So, attacking is realistic...

Much more realistic in my opinion then hoping that diplomacy will always provide a peaceful outcome. As long as we have irrational humans (post-enlightment thinking, hint, hint), we will have disagreements only solved by fighting.

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Such a bullshit!!!! That is the reason why 'we' try to negotiate! In WWI people went to the battlefields thinking going to picnic and return in max 2 weeks as heroes. But with WW2 you are partly right! But this was a special case..! Europeans were afraid of a second great war and the horrible experiences from WWI whereas the US never experienced the cruelties of wars in their own country (except the civil war)!

Yes, and their *inaction* prior to WWII is what made it that much worse than WWI. If they would have stopped Hitler after his first incursions into neighboring states, before he could have built his military-industrial complex, do you think it would have been nearly as bad?

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Originally posted by rizen Pretty sure international coalition = UN.

LINKY

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But no council action is expected, despite the fact that the United States and France are already engaged in talks on whether an international force should be dispatched to the country.

So now what? We again do nothing as Haiti destorys itself yet again?

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You're at moment sitting around.

Well, not everyone can join the armed forces. However, if my country called me to duty, I would not hestiate for a second. Call me naive or a helpless romantic, but thousands of Americans have died for my freedom as well as the freedom of others. As fucked up as America is, I cannot think of another place that enjoys what Americans do. I would die for it, just as those before me have. And I would die so that others may enjoy the same freedom, just as Americans did in WWI, WWII, Vietnam and today in Iraq.

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Who cares about the French, we still had no reason to bother with Vietnam.

We had been their with France in an advisory role since 1955...or are we not suppossed to support our allies? We showed support in WWI, WWII, Korea and the first Gulf War for our allies, although France sure didn't prior to the latest Gulf War.



Again, as I said before...I'm not all about just going in with guns ablaze. What I am for is the realization that not all issues can be solved diplomatically. There is a time and a place for action. America may be a little quick to the fight, but Europe makes up for it with their "hands-off" approach to seemingly every situation.

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Originally posted by NeoPhono LINKY So now what? We again do nothing as Haiti destorys itself yet again?

Clinton put Aristide in office in the first place so it's our mess all over again. I say let them do watever they want.

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Originally posted by NeoPhono Well, not everyone can join the armed forces. However, if my country called me to duty, I would not hestiate for a second. Call me naive or a helpless romantic, but thousands of Americans have died for my freedom as well as the freedom of others. As fucked up as America is, I cannot think of another place that enjoys what Americans do.

Neatherlands.

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Originally posted by NeoPhono I would die for it, just as those before me have. And I would die so that others may enjoy the same freedom, just as Americans did in WWI, WWII, Vietnam and today in Iraq.

ROFL , thanks you've made my day.

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Originally posted by NeoPhono We had been their with France in an advisory role since 1955...or are we not suppossed to support our allies? We showed support in WWI, WWII, Korea and the first Gulf War for our allies, although France sure didn't prior to the latest Gulf War.

No, I think its the oppiste, we didn't show support to our allies, the UN and most of the world. The latest gulf war is one FU by holyburton and PNAC.

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Originally posted by NeoPhono Again, as I said before...I'm not all about just going in with guns ablaze. What I am for is the realization that not all issues can be solved diplomatically. There is a time and a place for action. America may be a little quick to the fight, but Europe makes up for it with their "hands-off" approach to seemingly every situation.

Diplomacy worked in Iraq, yet we still attacked