Why Bush is bad:

1. He lacks Charisma (far opposite of Clinton)
2. He is a terrible speaker
3. He doesn't give enough press conferences or connect with the people enough
4. He doesn't visit other countries enough and have meetings with other leaders
5. He took too many vacations at the start of his term.
6. He promises millions to Africa in AIDS aid when we have bigger issues at home to deal with.
7. He doesn't show enough outrage over an American being beheaded.
8. He doesn't speak up like a leader should in rough times.
9. John Ashcroft
10. Debt and too much spending (though it's reasonable in our current time of war)
11. Pandering to illegal aliens and giving citizenship to illegal alien Mexicans in order to get more votes. Not taking a tough stance on strong boarders.
12. Who is Dick Cheney and why is he so invisible???? The ghost vice president.

Why Bush is good:

1. Tax cuts
2. He seems to have good moral values and tries to do what is right
3. He isn't as corrupt as Clinton was.
4. Sucessfully removed Saddam Hussain from power and has took us to War in Iraq with only a 1% loss of life on our side while mostly destroying one of the worst regimes in modern history.
5. Sucessfully took over Afganistan and continuing to hunt the enemy.
6. Sucessfully averted an unknown number of terrorist attacks since 9/11. and has been sucessful in protecting America and it's interests.
7. Colon Powell
8. Condi Rice


Would I vote for him? No.

Last edited by FuzzyGreen on May-28-2004 at 19:41

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Simply put, your post stated that anyone who votes bush is either A) ultra-religious, B) Stupid, or C) corrupt. That isn't elitist?

As with all topics here, opinions and cases are subject to interpretation, would you not agree?

In looking back at what igottaknow stated:

quote:

1. His most dedicated base, the Christian right, will vote for him no matter what he does, just as long as he keeps pushing Christian values, laws, judges, and faith based programs. That's a pretty large chunk of the country. Can you say bible belt (Midwest and the south)? It's like asking someone to change his or her religion because of a bad priest, it ain't going to happen. 2. Another key constituent, big business, who has received so many favors, taxes breaks, and deregulation, they must be having wet dreams thinking about reelecting him to a second term. The corporate employees who fear losing their job if preferential treatment is reduced will also vote Bush. 3. Oh let's not forget about that average Joe personality that dumb people just can't get enough of. If Clinton proved anything personality trumps all. Ever since the invention of TV people have wanted a movie star for president. Just think of three of our most popular presidents: JFK, Reagan, and Clinton. 4. Finally let's not forget we love a president who makes us feel patriotic and tough. Hell we've got an action hero who speaks in one-liners. Didn't you hear he's going to rid the world of 'evildoers'! Who knows Arnold Swarzenagger might be our next president.

One could also interpret his points in the following manner:

1. The Christian right has fundamental beliefs and an unshakeable notion to vote for someone who shares similar beliefs (or in this case, pretty much identical beliefs). True or false?

2. Big business has benefited a great deal from Bush's economic plan, and they'll likely support and lobby hard for his re-election as a result. True or false?

3. Personality goes a long way, esp. for those individuals whom are unwilling to invest enough time and effort into politics. These "dumb" individuals have a tendency to vote for that individual who carries himself well, regardless of viewpoints in some instances, such as for Clinton, Reagan, and JFK. True or false?

4. President Bush and the bulk of Conservatives ARE playing the patriot card ever since 9/11 (one might conclude overplaying the card). Mr. Ashcroft telling us that we are unpatriotic if we do not fully support the Patriot Act was quite enough for me personally. The black/white version of George "with us or against us" Bush set the tone quite clearly, and unfortunately those far-right radio pundits have taken this to ridiculous new heights. True or false?

I'll grant you, #4 is a bit partisan, but I'd venture to bet that a number of conservatives or even a number of centrists like yourself would agree in part, if not in its entirety.

Again, you say "tomato".....

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 As with all topics here, opinions and cases are subject to interpretation, would you not agree? In looking back at what igottaknow stated: One could also interpret his points in the following manner: 1. The Christian right has fundamental beliefs and an unshakeable notion to vote for someone who shares similar beliefs (or in this case, pretty much identical beliefs). True or false? 2. Big business has benefited a great deal from Bush's economic plan, and they'll likely support and lobby hard for his re-election as a result. True or false? 3. Personality goes a long way, esp. for those individuals whom are unwilling to invest enough time and effort into politics. These "dumb" individuals have a tendency to vote for that individual who carries himself well, regardless of viewpoints in some instances, such as for Clinton, Reagan, and JFK. True or false? 4. President Bush and the bulk of Conservatives ARE playing the patriot card ever since 9/11 (one might conclude overplaying the card). Mr. Ashcroft telling us that we are unpatriotic if we do not fully support the Patriot Act was quite enough for me personally. The black/white version of George "with us or against us" Bush set the tone quite clearly, and unfortunately those far-right radio pundits have taken this to ridiculous new heights. True or false? I'll grant you, #4 is a bit partisan, but I'd venture to bet that a number of conservatives or even a number of centrists like yourself would agree in part, if not in its entirety. Again, you say "tomato".....

Ok well why don't I apply my own spin on things to illustrate my point:

Reasons why a person would vote for John Kerry -

1. They're extreme leftists who take part in wacky groups such as greenpeace or peta. True or false?

2. They're non-working poor who want an expansion of welfare benefits so they can do less in exchange for getting more. True or False?

3. They're Socialists who are aiming for bigger governments and desire redistribution of wealth programs or affirmative action programs. True or False?

4. Or of course they're internet nut jobs who propogate poorly thought out ideas and refuse to abandon the notion of the vast right wing conspiracy. True or False?

Ummm that's about it right?


Of course all of those can be true since John Kerry voters likely incorporate all those factions of people. However, that portrayal is false as it leaves off all the normal people who vote for Kerry after careful analysis of his proposed domestic or foreign agenda. Hence it is elitist since I am attempting to classify all John Kerry voters in one of the above categories in order to cast them in a derogetory light.

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Retro ...

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Ok well why don't I apply my own spin on things to illustrate my point:

You didn't have to illustrate your point, oh wise-silly-bored one, I understood what you were getting at. I just didn't see igottaknow's points quite as extremist partisan as you did. And besides, don't cha think you kinda went a little extreme on your counterpoints? Was his points really that far extreme? OK, I'm a little biased towards the left, but I think you can concede at least a couple of his points, can you not?

If you honestly interpreted his points as extreme, then I guess I really don't have much of an argument.

Actually, I really don't have much of an argument anyway. I really can't think too hard today. Mr. Daniels' "Gentlemen Jack" was not very fucking gentle to me last night. 4 advil and a gallon of H2O today and I'm still sucking.

Must sleep soon. Winding down......

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 Actually, I really don't have much of an argument anyway. I really can't think too hard today. Mr. Daniels' "Gentlemen Jack" was not very fucking gentle to me last night. 4 advil and a gallon of H2O today and I'm still sucking. Must sleep soon. Winding down......

Old Gentleman Jack will up and kick you in the nuts if you're not paying attention! I was up drinking G&T which usually does strange things to me(headache included).

Usually a good quantity of gin will make me:

1)Have really strange dreams
2)Wake up extremely early for no reason(many times still drunk)
3)Take a plethora of Advil and Coca-Cola.


To quote a personal favorite...

"Tequila dries me out, and beer just makes me fat. Whiskey makes me nauseous, tell me who the hell needs that? If you're thinkin' about drinkin' then the answer's crystal clear; it's the invisible intoxicant....called Everclear."

Any big Memorial Day Weekend plans?


Have I veered far enough off topic?

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 You didn't have to illustrate your point, oh wise-silly-bored one, I understood what you were getting at. I just didn't see igottaknow's points quite as extremist partisan as you did. And besides, don't cha think you kinda went a little extreme on your counterpoints? Was his points really that far extreme? OK, I'm a little biased towards the left, but I think you can concede at least a couple of his points, can you not? If you honestly interpreted his points as extreme, then I guess I really don't have much of an argument. Actually, I really don't have much of an argument anyway. I really can't think too hard today. Mr. Daniels' "Gentlemen Jack" was not very fucking gentle to me last night. 4 advil and a gallon of H2O today and I'm still sucking. Must sleep soon. Winding down......

Well no they most certainly were not that extreme. But as someone once described my style of debate I utilize an "informal game theory/zero-sum game" (heh wtf?), so I suppose I use extreme examples to get back to that uhhh ... zero ... sum ... you know ... in the game .... ummmm yea?

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Retro ...

Nice rephrasing of my points Mr. Opus, I think Occrider doesn’t like my blunt view of Bush because he’s a republican.

While I might view the four points negatively they are all plausible reasons. For example you could take the first point that his Christian right constituent is proof that he enjoys moral superiority or his policies to remove the barriers between church and state are a good thing, even though it’s against the Constitution. A large segment of his supports like the idea of adding religion to our government. In part this has been an over reaction to Clinton.

As for my 3rd point Americans value superficial qualities over the candidate’s record and policy. This isn’t a partisan issue; candidates who are perceived as boring are at a big disadvantage (Bush 41, Dole, Gore, Dukakus…).

My 4th point speaks to a general mentality of this country to seek simple punitive solutions to complex problems i.e. war on drugs, war on crime, war on terrorism... Sounds like a bad action movie but it’s true. One thing you can’t debate is that Bush is anti-intellectual; he makes no bones about that.

quote:

2. They're non-working poor who want an expansion of welfare benefits so they can do less in exchange for getting more. True or False? 3. They're Socialists who are aiming for bigger governments and desire redistribution of wealth programs or affirmative action programs. True or False?

In the past you could accuse the democrats of big government policies, expensive social programs, and fiscal irresponsibility, but under Bush we have seen the largest run up of the debt, an astronomical expensive prescription drug program, and a total lack of fiscal responsibility.

Occrider, I’m still waiting for your list of why people support Bush, just remember no generalization please

___________________
GIGANTIC CUNT

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka Any big Memorial Day Weekend plans? Have I veered far enough off topic?

Ah, who cares anymore? My extreme case of the brain "duhs" have overtaken any rational thought right now.

As for weekend plans, not much - we're just watchin' a friend's dog and I'll be smokin' some ribs on Sunday. Actually, that was the original intent of the whiskey - it was part of my recipe for my sauce and tenderizer.

Oh well, the liquor store is just 2 min. from our pad. We'll be fine.

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

Intersting stuff,

It looks like ppl will always vote for the wrong reasons anywhere in north america.

thanks

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quote:

Originally posted by TrueToTheCrew Intersting stuff, It looks like ppl will always vote for the wrong reasons anywhere in north america. thanks

What are the "right" reasons?

quote:

Originally posted by FuzzyGreen Why Bush is bad: 1. He lacks Charisma (far opposite of Clinton) 2. He is a terrible speaker 3. He doesn't give enough press conferences or connect with the people enough 4. He doesn't visit other countries enough and have meetings with other leaders 5. He took too many vacations at the start of his term. 6. He promises millions to Africa in AIDS aid when we have bigger issues at home to deal with. 7. He doesn't show enough outrage over an American being beheaded. 8. He doesn't speak up like a leader should in rough times. 9. John Ashcroft 10. Debt and too much spending (though it's reasonable in our current time of war) 11. Pandering to illegal aliens and giving citizenship to illegal alien Mexicans in order to get more votes. Not taking a tough stance on strong boarders. 12. Who is Dick Cheney and why is he so invisible???? The ghost vice president. Why Bush is good: 1. Tax cuts 2. He seems to have good moral values and tries to do what is right 3. He isn't as corrupt as Clinton was. 4. Sucessfully removed Saddam Hussain from power and has took us to War in Iraq with only a 1% loss of life on our side while mostly destroying one of the worst regimes in modern history. 5. Sucessfully took over Afganistan and continuing to hunt the enemy. 6. Sucessfully averted an unknown number of terrorist attacks since 9/11. and has been sucessful in protecting America and it's interests. 7. Colon Powell 8. Condi Rice Would I vote for him? No.

ok, great response but slightly flawed. I think he has great charisma (landing a fighter on an aircraft carrier, remempber that.)
his bad speeches are the fault of his bad speech writers, not him. and he does have a lot of press conferences if u watch fox news alot.

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Signature Suspended as it was deemed offensive.