The counties of Derry, Antrim, Down, Armagh, Fermanagh and Tyrone which are presently and temporarily occupied by Britain is where I'm refering to.

___________________
"Níl saoirse gan saoirse lucht oibre."

quote:

Originally posted by donegalredneck The counties of Derry, Antrim, Down, Armagh, Fermanagh and Tyrone which are presently and temporarily occupied by Britain is where I'm refering to.

change that avatar of yourse. makes me sick

___________________
"Those are my principles, if you don't like them... well, I have others.”

Hmm, I sense an IRA/UFF fight coming up...

___________________
1+1=10

Dunno yet what group I will vote... I suppose the Galeusca party, they support the minority nations of Europe and also they are pro-europe.

___________________
IBIZA INFO THREAD

Last edited by UnBracKo on Jun-04-2004 at 22:20

quote:

Originally posted by mixinmusic I wonder if there was a vote in those places "occupied" tommorow would they want to free themselves from this "occupation"?

Unionists make up 18% of the Irish population. The way Ireland was partitioned to facilitate the wishes of a minority living here and a foreign government is called gerrymandering.

quote:

Originally posted by mixinmusic Should Britain give these occupied places back to the ancestors of the centuaries old kings who used to own these lands?

There's no suggestion whatsoever of land changing hands. It won't happen following a British withdrawal. What you have now you'll have then and along with it hopefully you'll have a greater say in the running of Ireland, unlike now when people who have no connection whatsoever to Ireland make the rules for part of it.

quote:

Originally posted by mixinmusic Am I part of this occupation? Do you live in an "occupied" territory?

You're not part of the occupation. In fact your ancestry is probably the same as my own. So if you're part of the occupation so am I.
I spend a fairly equal amount of my time in 26 counties and the 6 counties.

quote:

Originally posted by mixinmusic Except im not a part of a terriorist organisation nor would or have I ever supported one....

Define terrorism. I'm not part of a terrorist orgnaisation nor do I support one. Armed struggle is not terrorism.

quote:

Originally posted by TranceGiant change that avatar of yourse. makes me sick

Eh, no



Anyway, we're supposed to be talking about the European elections

___________________
"Níl saoirse gan saoirse lucht oibre."

voting for the joined forces PSD-PP, part of the EPP group

thing is i hate PP for their ultra conservative status, and they used to be anti-europe (i am totally pro-europe), but there is no better option really. the other options are crazy extreme left parties/commies, the socialists which fucked up completely our economy and must be left out at any cost, or this new ultra-conservative party that came out from inside PP

the vote is totally for PSD,they are so impopular right now among the people cause of harsh politics to keep up the economy, but i believe that is the only way to go until it stabilizes - voting against them would only make their government more fragile

the campaign over here has been total bullshit until now though, all the parties starting throwing insults at each other, now all they say in the speeches is that they should stop the insults and start talking about european issues.... when nobody actually does it

___________________
sempre contra a corrente do jogo

quote:

Originally posted by donegalredneck Define terrorism.

Hmm, I think you should ask Diginut and George Smiley to help you guys out on that one

___________________
1+1=10

quote:

Originally posted by mixinmusic Ireland has never been an independant single united country, can you tell me a time when it was? Why then should we look at it in that way, perhaps we should look at unionism through an all British Isles perspective and at something that was once a reality rather than a dream. Then you will find unionists make up a massive majority...

You're right, it has never been a united independent state, but in the 12th century, when the first anglo-normans came to Ireland, nowhere would there have been states in the modern sense. Several centuries later, yes. The opinion of the British public at large has never been an issue for either Republicans (who believe the Irish people as a single unit free from foreign interference should determine their own destiny) or unionists (who believe an artifical majority should determine the future of the gerrymandered statelet. I remember watching Michael McGimpsey being questioned on television a few months back, it was put to him that the majority of Irish people and British people want a United Ireland. His response was that it wasn't for either to decide, because a so-called majority in the 6 counties wished for things to remain as they are). As for British people, most don't care either way but it's widely accepted that of those who know of the siuation a majority of them want an end to British rule in Ireland. But that's irrelevent.

quote:

Originally posted by mixinmusic Are you talking about the European union that makes 70% of all laws??

I was refering to Ireland being ruled from London (direct rule as it's called). But yes, I'm opposed to centralisation of rule through the EU just as much. I'm a great advocate of decentralisation.

quote:

Originally posted by mixinmusic However.. You don't know who I am or where I am from. If my ancestry is not the same as you am I part of this "occupation"

Well I know you're a Unionist from the six counties. I might be wrong in thinking your ancestry is British Protestant? I assume that's the case, as it is with me.
Again, the occupation is in the sense that the British establishment have a hold on part of Ireland. Unionists will have a role in the future of Ireland (post unification), the British government will not.

quote:

Originally posted by mixinmusic Ok here is the defination of terriorism for you... "The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons." Armed struggle comes into that A.ND is the exact same thing. Your armed struggle is not lawful by Irish, British, European or international law and therfore is is unlawful. Your armed struggle is an attempt to coerce the government and it is for ideological and political reasons!! This armed struggle is terriorism.

But I think that would imply all military action is terrorism. For example, George Washington and his army used violence to overthrow British rule in what is now the USA. It was obviously for ideolgical and political reasons (in fact pretty much all military conflicts are, but not all are terrorism). And it would further suggest that the 4th July is a terrorist celebration in my opinion. On the other hand, using Ireland as an example, would the British establishment's use of military force not be terrorism since it's applicable to the definition. I suppose everyone will have their own interpretation of what is and is not terrorism. I'm sure you're aware of the oft used cliche "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter". Similarly, you have southern politicians commemorating things like the 1798 and 1916 risings (which were against the law of the land, and so terrorism to the law enforcers at the time) but at the same time jailing people for engaging in similar activity as the men from whom they (southern politicians) draw their roots. Bit hypocritical in my opinion.

Also, I was wondering what you think of the idea of a northern majority holding the key to the future of the 6 counties. I've heard people say Unionsts, holding on so strongly to the idea of northern majority, have in fact left themselves in a bad position because when the majority in the north is a nationalist one the Unionsts will have nothing to fall back on since they've stuck to this way of thinking for decades. What I'm getting as is, when nationalists make up 50.0001%, will Unionists just role over and say fair enough?

___________________
"Níl saoirse gan saoirse lucht oibre."

quote:

Originally posted by paranoik0 the campaign over here has been total bullshit until now though, all the parties starting throwing insults at each other, now all they say in the speeches is that they should stop the insults and start talking about european issues.... when nobody actually does it

hehe, first sign that EU is becomming a superstate like the US

quote:

Originally posted by mixinmusic Who are these "Irish people" you yourself claim you are British and there are hundreds of different ethnic minorities living in Ireland. What makes someone Irish? What about immigrants, do they not have a say in a democracy? The fact of the matter is "foreign" interference is a big part of Ireland's history and foreigners live on this land now, you cant just kick them all home.

I'm not British, I'm Irish. But if you want to be that abstract about it, there are no Irish people at all, as there were no people living here about 10,000 years ago, so no one's truly Irish. Or if you want me to be really obscure, everyone is African since that's where man began. You'll find the republican movement are amongst the most open minded groups in Ireland when it comes to immigration issues. The fact that foreign rule is part of Irish history (and present) hardly justifies it does it? Stabbings are common in Limerick, so does that make it right? As for kicking people "home", if you're refering to Unionists they are home. You don't really think there's going to be ethnic cleansing, pogroms, etc.?

quote:

Originally posted by mixinmusic You claim the British would want a united Ireland but it also seams quite clear today the Republic don't want a united Ireland eitehr!

Well they signed up to an agreement in which they made assurances that unification would be facilitated when the opportunity arises. As well as that, all the main nationalist parties (FF, FG, Labour, SDLP) in 1983 pledged their support for a United Ireland (see New Ireland Forum Report)

quote:

Originally posted by mixinmusic How would the small economy of the Republic of Ireland pay for a £3bn budget defecit in an £8bn economy? especially now they use the Euro I also take it you would prefer the Euro be introduced to N. Ireland - furthering the decentralisation of power to Brussles.

Well I'm opposed to the Euro, but Ireland abandoning the use of the Euro isn't going to happen and obviously it'll come into use throughout Ireland when the country is united (can't really have sterling can ya?)

quote:

Originally posted by mixinmusic Also can you explain to me where all the money to develop the Irish economy has come from over the past 10 years?? If you are so opposed to this centralisation how did you plan to develop your nation and pay for the £3bn budget defecit in the North? Do you just advocate pulling out of the EU once the Republic becomes a contributor and leave those new nations to develop themselves?

The development of the Irish economy was due to many factors, higher standards of education provided for foreign investment and the knock on effect it had, etc. and obviously money from Europe which led to development of infrastructure, etc.
No, I'd be a bit of a lefty and would advocate helping the developing states as much as we were helped. If others did it for us, we can return the favour to those who need the help we once needed.

quote:

Originally posted by mixinmusic I just defined terriorism as you asked... check it out for yourself www.dictionary.com!

So you're sticking to what's defined there and therefore you are saying that the liberation of the colonies in 1776 and founding of the US was a terrorist action. What happened there then influenced what happened in France in 1789 and Ireland in 1798. So if Wolfe Tone was a terrorist father then surely Washington was too?

quote:

Originally posted by mixinmusic Its a pitty you are so out of touch with reality that innocent people have been killed by these freedom fighters... its a further pitty that the Catholic church has supported it.

I'm aware of that, and it's a regretful consequence of the situation here. Mistakes happened, and a lot of innocent people died, on both sides. But British rule facilitates resistance. Militant republicanism exists because British rule exists. Bring an end to the latter and the former will have no justification whatsoever to exist.

quote:

Originally posted by mixinmusic Lets get realistic the question why do you support the continued violence for a quite frankly sad goal and why do you continue to play the opression card.. its a load of bollox to be quite honest and totally against all Christian teaching!

At present I don't support it (armed struggle) as you're seeming to suggest. Obviously I support the idea of an all-Ireland republic and on principle recognise the right of the Irish people to resist, forcefully if necessary. But the almost non-existant campaigns of the smaller republican groups at present isn't going to achieve its aims any time soon. There needs to be support from the people as there was in the past for it to be successful. And in fairness too, don't you think it's a little disrespectful to label the idea of justice a "sad goal".
Christian teaching tells us to turn the other cheek. Slaves are made that way. I for one am glad that Irish people in the past adhered to the idea of liberation and justice. Had they adhered to Christian teaching most of the people in Ireland would be second class citizens in their own country.

___________________
"Níl saoirse gan saoirse lucht oibre."

quote:

Originally posted by mixinmusic Does that include British immigration? What if the British decided tommorow to come to Ireland in massive numbers as to form a majority?

Well that obviously isn't going to happen. But to answer the question, yes, I'd be opposed to it if a gigantic number of people came from any given country for the sole reason of becoming a majority and seizing control of the country for the benefit of their country. It would be imperialism. As for immigration in the real sense, as we're experiencing here today, I have no problem whatsoever with it. And considering the history of people from Ireland emmigrating I can't see how anyone can try to justify keeping all non-nationals out. Obviously I subscribe to this way of thinking within reason if that makes sense. Immigration should be relative to the ability of a country to cope with the economic implications brought with it.

quote:

Originally posted by mixinmusic How is it "foreign" when you claim yourself you are decendanded from Britain. That is the problem with Republicanism because it see's anything other than Irish foreign when white people are all the same and there is bugger all difference.

It's foreign in the sense that Irish people, for centuries, were (and some still) ruled from a country and administration other than their own. All white people are the same??? Non-whites are different???

quote:

Originally posted by mixinmusic As for justification, no part of Ireland is ruled unlawfully but democratically.

Well what's law? Just because something is statute doesn't mean it's morally right. I mean up until 1921 the Republic founded in 1919 wasn't recognised by British law or internationally. It was technically illegal but was the greatest victory for Irish Republicanism in its history and was the foundation of the 26 county state. The elected Sinn Féiners in 1918 setting up Dáil Éireann acted illegally I'm sure, yet Unionists recognise it as a legitimate state. I wouldn't get to bogged down on what's written as law, particularly foreign law in regard to domestic issues.

quote:

Originally posted by mixinmusic Well if the the record of ethnic cleansing on the border is anything to go by... and of course the once 10% Protestant population in the Republic somehow is not only 2%, I wonder where they all went.....

Irish republicans, being anti-sectarian, would obviously be completely opposed to such sectarianism. But you are right. There were some such incidents post partition, which are completely uncondonable. I think though a fair amount of voluntary migration occurred with northern Catholics moving south and southern Protestants moving north.

quote:

Originally posted by mixinmusic 1983 was a long time ago... There are less people readily identifying themselves with this pure republican Irishness especailly new migrants.

It was a fair while back, but the goal of unification remains central to all the nationalist parties (Fianna Fáil - The Republican Party, etc.) even if they do see it as of lesser importance than other things, as is the case with some parties.
And you're right. It's not fashionable to be Republican at present, looking at Irish history it seems to be like a tide.

quote:

Originally posted by mixinmusic Do you know that the European parliament is based on a proportional population basis... do you call that gerrymandering also?

As are electoral areas for county councils, national parliaments, etc. which couldn't really be regarded as gerrymandering. Gerrymandering is the division of an electoral area to give an unfair advantage to one group over another.

quote:

Originally posted by mixinmusic I cant argue with that but what you must also realise is that although the GDP of Ireland is strong a rise in the likes of corporation tax rates of future rises in interest rates across Europe could see a hell of a lot of jobs and industry jumping ship especailly to the new assention countries... the Irish economy has a realitively weak GNP and that is sure to be reflected in the future. Do you honestly think Ireland can continue along the sustained low interest rate boom that it is experiencing??

The Nice Treaty further threatened to harmonise corporation tax throughout the EU, that would also apply to assention states. If this was allowed to happen then we'd be in a bad position. Our trump card in attracting foeign investment is the tax breaks that other countries don't provide. This coupled with low labour costs in the east would be a disaster. Ideally though, there should be an balancing out of GDP and GNP. Foreign companies invest in counties for the sole reason of maximising profits and exploiting their workforces. Foreign investment in the longterm is bad for a country in that it undermines native industry and tilts the GDP-GNP balance in favour of foreign capitalists at the expense of indigenous peoples and industries.

quote:

Originally posted by mixinmusic I cannot argue with the dictionary defination of a word... Perhaps you should lobby to have it changed?

Well I assumed you'd stick with the definition, I was more interested in your opinion on what constitutes a terrorist, using Washington as an example because he's someone who undoubtedly is a terrorist in a technical sense and according to the dictionary, but I can't imagine many Americans labelling their founding fathers as terrorists. I'm sure Pearse, Connolly, Sands, etc. you'd regard as terrorists, yet they have streets and the like named after them.

quote:

Originally posted by mixinmusic Its a pitty that you cannot see beyond your own small minded nationalistic dreams. Have you lost people because of the conflict? Would you be willing to die for your cause?

Immediate family, no. I know a fair few people who've lost fathers, brothers, etc. whose political beliefs have remained as they always were. If you're implying that I'd have different views if family members were killed in the conflict I'd be unable to answer since I'm not in that situation. As for dying for the cause, obviously not if it just meant another name on the list.

quote:

Originally posted by mixinmusic No. You resist being governed because you see a dream of this future Ireland so much better than the one we've got. I say Bullshit! Things won't change one bit in your Ireland, never mind get better.

I see the dream of a future Ireland being a fair and impartial one, something Ireland past never was and arguably something the six counties are not in that a nationalist man is two and a half times more likely to be unemployed than a unionist man, the east/west of the Bann divide where places with the largest proportion of nationalists are the most disadvantaged in the six counties (Derry and Strabane for example). Of course I'd resist being governed by Britain, as an Irish person it's my right!
There are economic concerns for some following a British withdrawal, the primary concern of Republicans is the right to national self determination, and the ability to, and to be let, stand on our own feet.

quote:

Originally posted by mixinmusic Perhaps you care to comment that if Irish government exists over the whole land then that rule would facilitate loyalist resistance in exactly the same way that you claim British rule facilitate's republicanism?

It would obviously be a disaster, and not something Republicans want. You should take a look at the Éire Nua (New Ireland) http://www.iol.ie/~saoirse/video/eirenua.htm plan. The aim of which is the creation of a federal Ireland in the event of British withdrawal. It's proposed that four provincial parliaments be set up. The aim is two-fold, it will facilitate decentralisation of political power to the provinces, and further to county/town council level and community level and so allowing for maximum devolution and people power, so to speak. The second is obviously to appease unionist concerns, i.e. people rule themselves, and not tyrannical rule from Dublin as I'm sure some unionists would view it.

quote:

Originally posted by mixinmusic Justice! BULLSHIT. The PIRA murdered thousands not only of Protestant people but more so the Catholic peoples and you call this shit justice....

Well if you want to get into past atrocities we can look at the great starvation in the mid nineteenth century, the failure of one crop depleated the population by millions due to the social, political and military set-up of British occupied Ireland.

quote:

Originally posted by mixinmusic Yeah just like Scotland & Wales ohh the injustice ..... Bullshit. It just shows how your goal of "religious freedom" for Catholics really amounts to nothing for people like you are not Chritian at all never mind Catholic.

Well yes, religious freedom is something written into the proclamation of 1916, "the Republic will guarantee religious and civil liberties" and is something I adhere to. The religious differences between the natives and newcomers was probably the greatest single issue that sets the Irish situation apart from the other two you've mentioned. By 1775 only 5% of Irish land was in the hands of the native Irish for example. I know the land my own family used to possess wasn't bought from the previous owners.

___________________
"Níl saoirse gan saoirse lucht oibre."