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Originally posted by DjSway No sympathy for those people in the video.. War is ugly for both sides, if you think these pilots gave a hoot, do you think Iraqi fighters give a hoot about US soldiers too? Since I'm not on their side (Iraqis), I'm glad it was them on the receiving end this time. However, this doesn't mean I approve the war in Iraq.

Firstly they were trying to fix the tractor with a pipe.... not a RPG. (Personal British Army Source)

Secondly as someone else said it is illegal to kill a wounded enemy.

Thirdly

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Since I'm not on their side (Iraqis),

yeah.... cos it's not like the war was for Iraqi's was it.....

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If you can read this, I'm seriously fucking bored.

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Originally posted by Dervish Firstly they were trying to fix the tractor with a pipe.... not a RPG. (Personal British Army Source) Secondly as someone else said it is illegal to kill a wounded enemy. Thirdly yeah.... cos it's not like the war was for Iraqi's was it.....

I have no clue of what they were doing, fixing or selling.

Second, tell me what is legal about war? Neither sides will follow rules to the full extend.

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Originally posted by DjSway I have no clue of what they were doing, fixing or selling. Second, tell me what is legal about war? Neither sides will follow rules to the full extend.

They were using a pipe ("RPG") to fix a tractor exaust.

Secondly you seriously support using criminals for pilots? Whats the point in defending the values of law and so on if you don't apply them to yourself?

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If you can read this, I'm seriously fucking bored.

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Originally posted by dospunk 1. War is ugly, it always has been and always will be, in fact past wars have been filled with atrocities and sick behavior that far outweighs anything that has been currently happening in Iraq.

So basically, it is ok to do something wrong as long as worse things have happened before?

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Originally posted by dospunk 2. 500000 casualties is an enormous number when you consider the war did not take place on our soil. Huge civilian casualty counts were inflicted on European countries and Russia due to carpet bombing of cities aimed mostly at civilians. The contribution of the blood of 500000 soldiers coupled with state of the art military warcraft is a pretty big deal so discrediting that effort just shows you to be biased against America and not really thinking rationally or you are just not very intelligent.

Compare the population of Poland to the Population of the United States. Then compare the two casualty counts. Or to be more fair(because Poland's population was basically killed off because of who they were) compare the USA's casualties to Russia's. Then also compare the method used at Omaha(Send humans until you get through) to the Russian's highly similar way (just send people with weapons like pitchforks against machine gunners). Trying to win the war with sheer numbers. Both countries used similar methods. Both countries fought mostly off their own land (though Germany did try going into Russia, it was just too costly for them...not to mention cold) Somehow the Russians had more casualties.

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Originally posted by dospunk 3. Anybody who says the world and the Iraqi people are not better off with Sadam gone is fucking out of their mind. Was the war justified, probably not by the initial reasons given, mistakes were made, major miscalculations were made but come on sometimes the ends justify the means.

Americans have killed many more Iraqi civilians than the terrorists have killed Americans. Why must these people die and how is this better off than an oppresive leader? America is bringing democracy to the Iraqis... whether they like it or not.

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Originally posted by dospunk 4. Dont think that any of you living in other democratized capitalist countries werent eventual targets too. The radical religious sect of the muslim world would smile if all of you died right next to us Americans. If they had the might that our country and your countries had we would all be dead. This planet would probably be turned into a nuclear waste pit.

I cannot beleive how horribly close minded that is. You are basing your opinion of ALL muslims on the actions of a terrorist group that called themselves muslim. Maybe the muslims have a reason for hating the Americans? Maybe because of things that are said like your comment?

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I sought refuge in a house on fire I took shelter in a wall of flame I built a prison in my own subconscious There's nothing else left Nothing else left to blame Nothing else left

- House on Fire by Assemblage 23

With all due respect Arg I do not understand what you were trying to get at with any of your replies.

1. I did not say the disturbing things happening in Iraq were justified I was just trying to make a point that war places enormous mental stress on the people involved and as a result inhumane acts are inevitable, the day there is a war that goes politically correct to a tee is not going to happen in our lifetime, but for the most part if you compare with past wars from past times you can see a steady improvement in humanitarianism with how this war has been going and how past wars have gone.

2. My point was pointing out the absurdity of linking effectiveness of a country's military effort solely with a casualty count. The American casualty count was strictly soldiers spilling their last drop of blood with a gun in their hands. There were no American civillians involved as with all other nations whose casualty count was dominated by civillian losses due to indiscriminate bombing campaigns of major cities. The count also ignored the major fact that the US was a highly industrialized nation and was able to make a major contribution to gaining air superiority.

3. Yes an unfortunate number of innocent Iraqis have already died during this war but look at the big picture and compare it with numbers like 100000-400000 put to death under Sadam's rule. He gassed villages in his own country. I saw a PBS special where some reporters visitied one of those villages. There were interviews with women who had no eyes because the poison caused such severe irritation it caused them to scratch their own eyes out. A common punishment for sedition to Sadams regime was the amputation of a hand. In the long run are you honestly suggesting that these people are worst off?

4. I made a distinct point in my comments to differentiate between the muslim world and the radical religious sect of the muslim world. Show me words that I said that implied they were one and the same. For you to say I said otherwise is insulting.

I cant believe we are carrying this whole debate out in the humor section of the tranceaddct forums. I come here to get away from the politics and BS.

Just so you know I am not a Bush supporter I plan to vote against him in the upcoming election and I have been trying to influence as many people as I can to make the same vote. But I am just tired of hearing so many antiamerican comments that are often devoid of rational thought and instead based on biases, generalizations and hatred.

I have now wasted far too much time with this conversation that I could have spent watcdhing people light their balls on fire and what not so I am dropping out of this conversation. Reply if you want but I am no longer listening. Back to sheepfucking and dick and fart jokes for me!

peace OUT

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Originally posted by dospunk With all due respect Arg I do not understand what you were trying to get at with any of your replies. 1. I did not say the disturbing things happening in Iraq were justified I was just trying to make a point that war places enormous mental stress on the people involved and as a result inhumane acts are inevitable, the day there is a war that goes politically correct to a tee is not going to happen in our lifetime, but for the most part if you compare with past wars from past times you can see a steady improvement in humanitarianism with how this war has been going and how past wars have gone.

Just to lighten the mood in here a bit.....



I say DAAAAAAMMMMMMNNNNNNNNN that's a long sentence!!!

I am sorry that you did not understand my replies. Debate is fun. You were the one that started the debate, so don't complain that there is one. If it takes so much of your precious time don't read and reply.

1. Mental stress should not hold up as a valid reason to commit such horrible war crimes. Lets take the My Lai incident in Vietnam for example. The major defense of this massacre of a whole village was stress and "faulty intelligence." So was it then justified even partially because the soldiers were under stress? Just like in Iraq, no!

2. It was not military effectiveness we were talking about though. It was the involvement the United States had in the World Wars. The count just shows that they did not do that much. Aslo the actual number of American soldiers lost was 292,000. The Soviet Union actually lost 19,180,000 soldiers and China lost 2,050,000. Poland did not losa many(123,000); however I dont think their army was bigger than that. Germany lost 3,500,000. Some interesting reading here about the numbers: http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/ww2stats.htm

3. Yes Saddam was horrible. And yes they may be better off for now. However the ends do not justify the means. That is just like attacking a country so they don't attack you some time in the future. Oh wait that just happened! Just keep in mind that whatever government the United States sets up will be qiuckly manipulated by it's leaders to form another Saddam situation.

4. Well I see what you mean and I'm sorry for offending you. I should have chosen my words more carefully. It is not the sect which is bad. It is a few people using the religion to trick others into doing this.

A few nice maps of the losses during the Second World War: http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/ww2-loss.htm

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I sought refuge in a house on fire I took shelter in a wall of flame I built a prison in my own subconscious There's nothing else left Nothing else left to blame Nothing else left

- House on Fire by Assemblage 23

Last edited by Arg on Jun-11-2004 at 17:28

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Originally posted by Dervish They were using a pipe ("RPG") to fix a tractor exaust. Secondly you seriously support using criminals for pilots? Whats the point in defending the values of law and so on if you don't apply them to yourself?

Dude what are you smoking? I think when you reply to peoples posts, you should reply within context to what they're talking about and not twisting words around.
Who said that I supported using criminals for pilots? Don't you know that in war even with the Geneva treaty and such, rules are broken all the times by both sides?
I say this, Iraqis have the right to defend themselves for what ever reason they have. I'm not here to be politically correct, I state my opinions and if you don't like it, well my dear boy... I just don't give a f*ck!
a)I don't think the US belongs there
b) But since we're there, lets keep our boys alive and bring them home!
c)Iraq is just another big mess, no thanks to Bush!

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Originally posted by DiMethGuy dude keep dreaming. In 250 years we've defeated the British, the Germans (Twice), the Japanese, brought the Soviet Union and communism to its knees, beat Iraq (Twice), and Afghanistan. So don't try and tell me that we're going down anytime soon, we still gotta clean up some other places.

Yeah and you lost to Vietnam

Could somebody please tell me that not all Americans think like this guy!! Otherwise I am gonna get very fightened! Cause this is probably the most retarded thing I have ever read, it perfectly characterises Bush' thoughts!

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I just can't believe all the things people say! Why must I deal with this shit every fucking day!

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Originally posted by lordyosh yea that video is fucked up. but don't say my country is gonna see it's end just because of that, fuck you.

well fuck you too

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Why must I walk this wicked path?

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Originally posted by Dj Dovla okeoke .. maybe I did not phrase it well , the USA will see its end very soon as the world superpower , everything great has to come to an end sometime ... history is there to prove it .. next superpower in line .... I say CHINA

k

exactly, yes, China is highly likely the next superpower, America isn't going to be high and mighty forever

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Why must I walk this wicked path?