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Originally posted by rupert How very trite. The UNHCR is providing aid to the refugees of Darfur even as we speak. The UN is required under the Charter to respect state sovereignty so it is only in rare circumstances that it can go into a country without the consent of the government of that state. And as was pointed out before the UN has no army and zero capacity to act unilaterally. Despite its weakness and structural inefficiencies the UN and its institutions are the best hope that the weak have. But even the limited amount of good the UN does is too much for your government. To quote one of US administration officials after the Iraq war. "I hope when Iraq falls so does the UN". The UN has been starved of funds by the USA for years because the right wingers, (there are no moderates running the USA) see it as an independant power against US hegemony. As for Iraq, I think the Iraqi sentiment can be summed up as "thanks for getting rid of Saddam, now fuck off" But that isnt going to happen. The USA is there to stay. Chalmers Johnson an eminent US historian of the old school; a real conservative has noted that the US is building 14 bases in Iraq. The USA wants to stabilize the situation so it can reduce the troop numbers but there is no intention of pulling out entirely. The only way the USA is going to leave is because the Iraqis are going to force the USA to leave. It takes shear unimaginable stupidity of the highest calibre to erode the good will which should exist in Iraq right now towards the USA. Saddam and his cronies were largely despised by the vast majority of the population and yet now there are daily attacks against the US and its puppets. No Iraqi respects the US imposed stooges in power now and no Iraqi expects anything will change with the handover. A large segment of the population or at least those that count, the guys with guns and bombs view them rightly as US puppets. The USA never learns any lessons. It will lose the Iraq war with the US pulling out its embassy staff in helicopters just like in Saigon. Far from stabilizing the Middle East, the Iraq war wont protect american oil interests and it wont protect Israel. The parallels between US action in Fallujah and Israeli action in the West Bank are plainly obvious to any arab. So when the Iraqis kick out the americans they are going to start to plan on helping their brothers in Palestine.

Trite Rupert is the fact that Kofi Anan is going to visit Darfur, heaven knows when the Sudanese government would allow it, to see the situation on the ground for himself when Arab militias are rampaging through there killing black Africans as many agencies have documented, who is he kidding about visiting to see for himself. Trite is the fact that that food supply is limited and only for the most needy and sickly women and children in such an isolated region. It is not that the U.S. should not support these refugees, but eventually people will find a way to criticize the U.S. about that as well. They'll think of something like oh no American troops are killing the Arab militia or Americans are not giving enough aid to the refugees, something would be found to criticize America about even in the Sudan, or mabye we will go there and Al Qaeda will show up and start blowing up themselves and innocent people in Khartoum and that will be the U.S. fault.

On your Iraq comments nothing new there I share those sentiments because I do not support the Iraq conflict and its aftermath. The U.S screwed up in Iraq and a blind man could see that.

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Trance = Heart, Mind, Body and Soul all in 1

Current fav. Global Experience = Madras

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Originally posted by NYCTrancefan You fail to understand my sentiments I know what the U.N. is and was referencing the fact that the world will sit by watch the events unfold in Sudan and offer up the usual speeches. This is not about America vis a vis the U.N. but the member states coming together to take concrete action to stop these Arab militias. Naturally of course this will not happen promptly, because as you yourself mention the likes of Russia, and China would do nothing to help anyway. America should not help, because we are imperialists who need to stay out of the business of other countries and not tell people what to do in their countries, sounds familiar. So other U.N member states should then solve the problems in Sudan, where are they, George, LOL The U.S. got involved in Haiti and Aristide had the audacity to claim he was kidnapped by American forces and taken out of Haiti by force, do you doubt his claims, I wonder. What you hear in my commentary is an American who is simply disgusted with people who criticize America for acting and for not acting as well, many sit on the sidelines and watch while criticizing America at every opportunity. I therefore don't give a damn anymore and only have an interest in helping America domestically. I use to be a forward thinker but no longer in today's world and that was the essence of my post.

Well if your gripe is with the world as a whole, not the UN directly then say so!

I can see why you're pissed off with criticism aimed at America but only if you have somehow managed to convince yourself that everything America does, it does for the interests of the international community, and not for itself. The vast majority of US Operations (military and assistance) have been for the American interest (Iraq a great contemporary example). I have no problem with America when it helps other nations or actually takes part in operations necessary for international security (Afghanistan for example). I would have no problems with America going into Sudan to help the people, or anywhere else in the world (plus I seem to recall something about dangerous levels of Islamic militants in Sudan possibly linked to al-Qaida?)

However, America now has a perfect excuse never to get involved in any of these humanitarian exersises (and lets face it, it has no concern with dealing with) - merely say, like you, that America will just be accused of imperialism!

If you think America should just concentrate on its own and not help anyone else, then fine - just stop fucking people over that dont want your help in the frst place as well!!!

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Originally posted by George Smiley Well if your gripe is with the world as a whole, not the UN directly then say so! I can see why you're pissed off with criticism aimed at America but only if you have somehow managed to convince yourself that everything America does, it does for the interests of the international community, and not for itself. The vast majority of US Operations (military and assistance) have been for the American interest (Iraq a great contemporary example). I have no problem with America when it helps other nations or actually takes part in operations necessary for international security (Afghanistan for example). I would have no problems with America going into Sudan to help the people, or anywhere else in the world (plus I seem to recall something about dangerous levels of Islamic militants in Sudan possibly linked to al-Qaida?) However, America now has a perfect excuse never to get involved in any of these humanitarian exersises (and lets face it, it has no concern with dealing with) - merely say, like you, that America will just be accused of imperialism! If you think America should just concentrate on its own and not help anyone else, then fine - just stop fucking people over that dont want your help in the frst place as well!!!

You have a lovely way of spinning the words of people I see, I never made such an outlandish comment that everything America does is out of the kindness of its heart and genorosity with no self interests attached. Stop insulting me with such third rate statements fit for rash generalized commentaries. P.S. it is not merely what I say about America being accused of Imperialism, it is what I see and hear from many Europeans who seem to think Americans share some loyal, fascist, Nazi era homogenous affilitation towards George Bush and his administrations policies.

Why is it that Iraq keeps getting referenced. In case it isn't abundantly clear as yet in my time spent on this board I will once again reiterate I do not support the Iraq conflict because it is based on distorted, supect and flat out fallacious rationale. The only thing now to hope for is that Iraq can be saved from an abyss of miserable chaos unfolding at the hands of a shortsighted, foolhardy administration that thought it could bring democracy by force to the Mid East, after its WMD claims were unfounded. I will certainly vote them out in November and hope that a new government spends my tax dollars on my future and that of America so I will not be begging on the streets for my Social Security when I'm 100.

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Trance = Heart, Mind, Body and Soul all in 1

Current fav. Global Experience = Madras

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Originally posted by NYCTrancefan You have a lovely way of spinning the words of people I see, I never made such an outlandish comment that everything America does is out of the kindess of its heart and genorosity with no self interests attached. Stop insulting me with such third rate statements fit for rash generalized commentaries. Why is it that Iraq keeps getting referenced. In case it isn't abundantly clear as yet in my time spent on this board I will once again reiterate I do not support the Iraq conflict because it is based on distorted, supect and flat out fallacious rationale. The only thing now to hope for is that Iraq can be saved from an abyss of miserable chaos unfolding at the hands of a shortsighted, foolhardy administration that thought it could bring democracy by force to the Mid East, after its WMD claims were unfounded. I will certainly vote them out in November and hope that a new government spends my tax dollars on my future and that of America so I will not be begging on the streets for my Social Security when I'm 100.

So basically what you are saying is that you agree 100% with American policy towards Iraq?

No, I know your views on Iraq and only mentioned it not as representing your views but to highlight an example of why there is this criticism (that you refered to earlier) aimed at America.

You say you have changed your views from idealism to realism and want American government to concentrate on domestic policies and not get involved in humanitarian operations because "heaven forbid America was to send troops, bloody imperialists" This suggests to me (please correct me if I am wrong) that you do not want America to become involved because why should they when all they get is criticism...yet you yourself, as someone opposed to the war in Iraq, form part of that criticism!

Now I am not sure if I read that correctly due to your later posts, but that is what it looked like when I first read it (and hence my arguments about how it seemed you thought America was a force for good for the most part, and my comments to the contrary over Iraq)

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Originally posted by George Smiley So basically what you are saying is that you agree 100% with American policy towards Iraq? No, I know your views on Iraq and only mentioned it not as representing your views but to highlight an example of why there is this criticism (that you refered to earlier) aimed at America. You say you have changed your views from idealism to realism and want American government to concentrate on domestic policies and not get involved in humanitarian operations because "heaven forbid America was to send troops, bloody imperialists" This suggests to me (please correct me if I am wrong) that you do not want America to become involved because why should they when all they get is criticism...yet you yourself, as someone opposed to the war in Iraq, form part of that criticism! Now I am not sure if I read that correctly due to your later posts, but that is what it looked like when I first read it (and hence my arguments about how it seemed you thought America was a force for good for the most part, and my comments to the contrary over Iraq)

I form part of the criticism in Iraq because of what is unfolding there contrary to what the government stated to the American people it turned out to be false in too many ways to even mention indepth in one post. As far as American intervention in other places I would like to see less of it and see who else will get involved in many of these places. I have heard some of the most ridiculous sentiments directed towards America that doesn't even seem to make sense, such as the U.S. was sabotaging the E.U. talks because they didn't want to see it succeed for fear of a strong, united Europe.

Essentially I am someone who absorbs a lot of international media so I see the different opinions out there, the internet being the reason for that, some of the statememts about America is flat out worrisome because it gives the impression that if you are American you must be this way as well, sheep in a flock unable to think outside of the yolk of the Bush administration, therein being American you are also callous, greedy, ignorant and arrogant in your actions just like the Bush admin to the eyes of the world.

Therefore you can find people making excuses for example when Paul Johnson had his head sliced off of his body, because he is a greedy, dumb American working in Saudi Arabia. Greedy in that he is simply an American or Westerner working in Saudi Arabia, dumb in that he should have left, never mind he has lived there for 10 years. See my point George, essentially if you are American then you must be of unendearing qualities is the way I see it from an outsiders perspective before they even know your name.

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Trance = Heart, Mind, Body and Soul all in 1

Current fav. Global Experience = Madras