quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic Gee, Yoepus - you have done it again. I point to problems in the US, which would render the rosy picture you have painted invalid, and you "defend" yourself by attacking Europe. Why don't you try to respond to the actual points for once. And for that "Americans and Eastern Europeans are treated bad in Europe"-thing, apart from being wholly absurd wrt. the Eastern Europeans, have you anything to back up that claim?

The point of my "attack" on Europe was to point out how ridicilous your attack on America looks. I have still not met an American that hates gay people, I've met Americans that hate Jews, some that very much dislike Arabs and hate their terrorists. I've met a lot of people in America. Its still curious I haven't met a gay-hater yet. So since American's don't hate gays, I have no clue what you are talking about.

My point that Europeans hate Americanas, Religious men, and Eastern European is no less absurd then your remark about Americans. It didn't respond to that point, as I don't think it is a point - I don't see this problem in American society. Just as no dount you don't see the problem with Eastern Europeans and Americans in your society.

...As for Eastern European treatment. My claim comes from personal experience with friends from places such as Turkey, Yugoslavia, and Bosnia. They don't make you guys sound like the politest of hosts.

There will no doubt be intolerance in every society, but trancholic, if you are trying to make the claim that European society is more tolerant than American society, I think you are making a very, very far stretch of a claim.

IMO, this point can be proven alone by the fact that America has no nobility.

quote:

The Iraqis do not want democracy and capitalism - how many people need to be killed before that message gets through?

So now you are telling me you as a European know what the Iraqi's want and don't want?! Thanks for making my point for me

quote:

If you really believed in the individual, you should have let the Iraqis depose of Saddam themselves, or have lend a hand when groups of Iraqis rebelled following Desert Storm, instead of sitting back and letting them get slaughtered.

Firstly if we would have "really believed in the individual" as you put it we couldn't have lended a hand when a group of Iraqis rebelled as this would help thema chieve democracy and capitalisim - something you told me Iraqis clearly don't want.

Further the reason the USA attacked Iraq was not because of the lack of individual liberties of the Iraqi people :AHHH SHOCK: No, it was because the USA believed Iraq posed a threat to the it's security. Humanitarian reasons were a consideration but they were not the deciding motivator.

The proof of USA's desire of individual and liberty is in its work now in post-war Iraq. After eliminating the threat the USA does not retreat nor does it setup its own colony to administer the Iraqi's as its subjects. Instead it pours billions of its own dollars for the selflesh welfare of the Iraqi people so they may have a strong stable society in which to decide their liberties and government.

quote:

It seems to me that the Bush administration really thinks it knows what is best for other people. Take the comments about Turkey and whether it should be accepted for inclusion in the EU, for instance: Why on earth should that be any concern of a US administration?

I guess the USA knew what's best for Europe too when they decided to clean up the Balkans... NYCTrance did a good job of addressing this point.




...


Next point. Many Europeans in this thread conceeding that they have lower GDP per capita now make the claim that at least they have welfare.

Guess what? The USA's social program could never dream of being as large, corupt, or ineffective as the ones Europe. But it does its job.

Nobody in the USA is going hungry or dying in the street. If you are hungry, you survive. If you are injured they still heal you. You might not have the best teeth in the world but you survive.

And if you always want the cozy social treatment afforded to low-class Europeans, jail offers great benifits.

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Last edited by Yoepus on Jun-20-2004 at 17:55

quote:

Originally posted by NYCTrancefan Certainly you cannot argue that in Eastern European countries such as Romania, Bulgaria, Slovakia to name a few the Romani populations of those countries are treated as second class citizens. They are often referred to as blacks by the general population, education is usually not available or segregated when offered.

I agree with you that the treatment of gipsies in Eastern Europe is awful (and the same goes for the treatment of Eastern Europeans by gipsies btw.), but that is a very liberal interpretation of what Yoepus wrote: He wrote that Eastern Europeans are treated badly in Europe - something that is entirely different, and which I deny.

quote:

Originally posted by NYCTrancefan As for Americans being treated bad in Europe wouldn't surprise me since people always try to get political when they hear someone is American, I have had friends who have gone to Ireland to visit and as soon as people hear that they are American they start asking a whole bunch of questions centered on politics, such as how could you elect George Bush, why are Americans so ignorant of other people, along with the other usual inferences. Never mind that over half of America didn't vote for Bush, which means odds are you just might be speaking to someone who disagrees with his policies, but do some Europeans take the time to know that, no, they simply want to argue politics because you are American and have already been generalized. When I go on vacation I don't want to talk politics but to relax and enjoy another culture, hope many Europeans realize this as well.

So it "wouldn't surprise" you if Americans were treated badly in Europe. Sorry for not being totally convinced, it's probably because I live here and have worked with Americans living in Europe, and have been on holiday with other Americans living in other parts of Europe.
As to the burden of being asked about the political climate in one's home country, I must admit that I never have thought of that as being inpolite. In the last two months I've talked to Irishmen, Frenchmen, Norwegians, Swedes, Iraqis, Germans, Austrians, Slovaks, Czechs, Fins, Pakistani, Iranians, Spaniards, and Americans, and all of them I've talked to about political issues. I think that letting such opportunities pass would be a shame, and so far I have not met any hostility from people I have debated with - no matter if it's the arrogance of the French government officials, the gradual disappearance of the Irish national identity, or the merits of the Bush administration.
If people are fed up with talking about politics I expect them to tell me.

quote:

Originally posted by NYCTrancefan When it comes to Bush and the administration certainly they have no business in E.U. affairs but we could just as easily say that Europe has no business in American affairs by that token of sentiment and I wouldn't mind seeing both exercised. I believe with the issue of Turkey and the E.U. too much of a deal is being made on your part when the U.S. says it supports E.U. membership for Turkey, either way it is not up to America, but Turkey is an ally and the U.S is simply voicing support for that ally, what difference will it make when France, Germany, U.K all favor Turkish memerbership as well. I will never sell America short because I know what this nation ultimately stands for and administrations come and go. P.S. America has seen other rough patches in its history and has managed to strengthen and grow throughout it all, all who predict the downfall of America seriously underestimate the spirit of this nation when all is said and done. America could be passive, isolationist and inward looking but will that be for the better in the world of today?

Notice that I didn't target Americans when I complained about interference in other nations affairs (I said the Bush administration), and I think that you will find that we agree on these matters.

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus The point of my "attack" on Europe was to point out how ridicilous your attack on America looks. I have still not met an American that hates gay people, I've met Americans that hate Jews, some that very much dislike Arabs and hate their terrorists. I've met a lot of people in America. Its still curious I haven't met a gay-hater yet.

The reason why my attack is not as ridiculous as yours, is that I never claimed Europe to be a superior part, whereas you claimed the US to "believe in the individual".
As for homosexuals - are they allowed to marry? What about this? Or all of these?
Clearly your millitary stops believing in the individual if he or she turns out to be gay.

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Your point that Europeans hate Americanas, Religious men, and Eastern European is no less absurd then your remark upon Europeans. It didn't respond to that point, as I don't think it is a point - I don't see this problem in American society. Just as no dount you don't see the problem with Eastern Europeans and Americans in your society.

The first part of this I didn't understand, but as to the final remark, maybe you can comment given the links on the web-page I gave above. And please, the European page is bad too, I never claimed us to be saints, but I get nauseous when you portray Americans (or Israeli for that matter) to be so.

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus ...As for Eastern European treatment. My claim comes from personal experience with friends from places such as Turkey, Yugoslavia, and Bosnia. They don't make you guys sound like the politest of hosts.

Ahh, I would call these Balkans and Turks, but I can see that they strictly speaking is from the eastern part of Europe. I won't defend how these are treated in the rest of Europe, but simply state that the blame should be split evenly among us. In my country the second largest organised crime unit consists of Balkans and middle easterners. And they do not shy away from anything.

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus There will no doubt be intolerance in every society, but trancholic, if you are trying to make the claim that European society is more tolerant than American society, I think you are making a very, very far stretch of a claim.

Start reading my posts, and you will see that I make no such claim. That does not prevent me from pointing out problems elsewhere - and from being right.

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus IMO, this point can be proven alone by the fact that America has no nobility.

"America has no nobility", how does that prove that American society is not less tolerant than the European one?
[/QUOTE]

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus So now you are telling me you as a European know what the Iraqi's want and don't want?! Thanks for making my point for me

Well, you have got a point there. I would say that the Iraqis tend to do a pretty good job of it themselves, though. But, of course, me telling Americans not to meddle in other countries affairs, is me meddling in the US affairs. Vicious circular reasoning there.

I'll skip the Iraq part as we have done that to death by now. Only Cheney and Rumsfeldt can tell us why the war was started and what the US are doing there now.

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus I guess the USA knew what's best for Europe too when they decided to clean up the Balkans... NYCTrance did a good job of addressing this point.

Compare this one with:

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus As for what Europe once was does not give it any claim to the greatest it does not posess today. Further many of the enlightenment thinkers agreed that such thought of the individual as still reflected by Americans were only able to exist in the New World.

Double standards?

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Guess what? The USA's social program could never dream of being as large, corupt, or ineffective as the ones Europe. But it does its job.

For once, back up your claims and document that European social program is corrupt?!?

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Nobody in the USA is going hungry or dying in the street. If you are hungry, you survive. If you are injured they still heal you. You might not have the best teeth in the world but you survive. And if you always want the cozy social treatment afforded to low-class Europeans, jail offers great benifits.

I'm not disagreeing with you here.

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus I have still not met an American that hates gay people, I've met Americans that hate Jews, some that very much dislike Arabs and hate their terrorists. I've met a lot of people in America. Its still curious I haven't met a gay-hater yet. So since American's don't hate gays, I have no clue what you are talking about.

aww yeah yoepus ...so yeah since YOU never met so far a gay hater ...u little gullible mind thinks that there are no gay haters in the states? mmmh so have you ever been to saturn ?i guess not but u think this planet exists don't u?mmh u make me think about these people living in the 16th century ...aww i feel sorry for you


[/i][/b]There will no doubt be intolerance in every society, but trancholic, if you are trying to make the claim that European society is more tolerant than American society, I think you are making a very, very far stretch of a claim.

IMO, this point can be proven alone by the fact that America has no nobility.[/QUOTE]



aww again ...bad point yoepus ...well america has no nobility ok ok if u talk about the dukes princes and all yeah i agree but america has a "nobility" with the people like rockfeller and all the richest men and people who have the industrial groups ...that's a nobility and an elite ....i think your argument ist just weak and doesn't prove anything AT ALL !





[/i][/b]Further the reason the USA attacked Iraq was not because of the lack of individual liberties of the Iraqi people :AHHH SHOCK: No, it was because the USA believed Iraq posed a threat to the it's security. Humanitarian reasons were a consideration but they were not the deciding motivator..[/QUOTE]

it's time to stop watching fox news i think ....."it was because the USA believed iraq posed a threat" aww sure what a threat ....well u dunno that it's wolfie who himself decided to imagine the threat of iraq ...it was just a pretext ....they just needed a pretext to attack the middle east and re organize the map of orient ....as a way to go on with what bush father did before with the communism .... a threat ....where are the chemical weapons?the laboratories on trucks that powell showed on the UN council ?
please stop believing in this crap and get some reliable infos !!!!!






[/i][/b] Next point. Many Europeans in this thread conceeding that they have lower GDP per capita now make the claim that at least they have welfare.

Guess what? The USA's social program could never dream of being as large, corupt, or ineffective as the ones Europe. But it does its job...[/QUOTE]


innefective ...corupt ...aww and how can u say that?i mean have u read any informations ....which ever said such a thing? have u ever experience the european system? if yeah i just want u explain us ....it intrigues me ....

[/i][/b] Nobody in the USA is going hungry or dying in the street. If you are hungry, you survive. If you are injured they still heal you. You might not have the best teeth in the world but you survive.

And if you always want the cozy social treatment afforded to low-class Europeans, jail offers great benifits. [/QUOTE]


....jail offers great benefits i hope u was kidding on this point ....aww i just hope u don't really believe in all what u wrote otherwise im just sorry for you .... but ur still young u still can change i hope for u !

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka Then again, Nokia is headquartered in Finland. Not Sweden, but close enough

sweden has Ericsson ffs

as for the rest of the topic i will reply when i have got more time

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus I have still not met an American that hates gay people, I've met Americans that hate Jews, some that very much dislike Arabs and hate their terrorists. I've met a lot of people in America. Its still curious I haven't met a gay-hater yet. So since American's don't hate gays, I have no clue what you are talking about.

that is the most ridiculous statement i've ever heard in my entire life...i live near san francisco and i always hear nonstop gay jokes about the people in san francisco being all gay...i'm friends with some christians/catholics and they are extremely prejudice of gay people...even seeing them disgusts them and most christians and catholics in general are definitely prejudice in someway against gays...looks you don't venture very much from this forum to see some of the other stuff thats been posted on here...you know what people in general are prejudice against homosexuals which IMO is wrong but for you to say Americans don't hate gays is absolutely wrong and stupid...i mean christ why aren't there more gay people in the military? in professional sports? even in the boy scouts for godssake...face it homosexuals face a lot of prejudice here...just curious you live in texas right and you're telling me you've never heard any prejudice towards gays? suuuuure...

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quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Its still curious I haven't met a gay-hater yet. So since American's don't hate gays, I have no clue what you are talking about.

Tell that to Matthew Sheppard...


...oh wait, he's dead.

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Timbro!

That would be the Swedish think-tank positioned on the political right, backed up by big business and stuff. Well known for having a very "free-market and capitalism"-agenda where well-fare is as small as it can possibly be.

I don't really question their findings since the scientific methods used in in this sudy are probably sound but obviously they only presents findings that support their cause and they don't hide the fact that they really would like to see an U.S. form of capitalism in Sweden.

Good or bad I leave that up to you

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Well, the GDP alone doesn't say much. So yeah, Washington has 5 times higher GDP than any other district. Does it mean that an average Joe in Washington is living better? Not really, it just says that there are a lot of filthy rich people there. Does it says anything about a country's power? Nope, Germany outperforms Washington in any area of productivity, research, or military.

As for welfare and social security, whether you think Europe is giving too much or too little, it still doesn't remove the fact that Europe has a way better social and medical security than the US.

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quote:

Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 As for welfare and social security, whether you think Europe is giving too much or too little, it still doesn't remove the fact that Europe has a way better social and medical security than the US.

w0rd

A worldwide survey was conducted by the UN. The only question
asked was:"Would you please give your honest opinion about solutions to the
food shortage in the rest of the world?"

The survey was a huge failure...
- In Africa they didn't know what "food" meant.
- In Eastern Europe they didn't know what "honest" meant.
- In Western Europe they didn't know what "shortage" meant.
- In China they didn't know what "opinion" meant.
- In the Middle East they didn't know what "solution" meant.
- In South America they didn't know what "please" meant.
- And in the USA they didn't know what "the rest of the world" meant

quote:

Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 As for welfare and social security, whether you think Europe is giving too much or too little, it still doesn't remove the fact that Europe has a way better social and medical security than the US.

Long term social programs are at the greatest risk in Europe - in fact, at far higher risk than the US or any other advanced nations. You people need to have more freaking children, because your piss-poor birthrates are bankrupting the system. Even worse, most continental governments are welcoming immigrants with open arms in order to remedy the situation. The only problem is that most of them are having one hell of a time assimilating.

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