For those who think September 11 is "over," this is a good article to read.

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September 10, 2004, 7:02 a.m. The Unfathomable Human Toll The savagery, in parts. Rich Lowry, National Review http://www.nationalreview.com/lowry...00409100702.asp 19,915. 9,429. 10,486. These are some of the most telling numbers related to Sept. 11. They are, respectively, the number of human remains recovered from Ground Zero, the number of remains identified with one of the 2,752 victims, and the number of remains that are still unidentified to this day. DNA technology has basically vanquished the "unknown soldier," a staple of the war memorials of yore. It took 9/11 to revive a brutal version of that phenomenon: the "unidentified remains." They sit in trailers operated by the New York City medical examiner's office, visible off the well-trafficked FDR Drive, passed by thousands of unknowing motorists a day. They are a neglected reminder of the sheer savagery of the Sept. 11 attacks and the unfathomable human toll of that day. I talked to a retired fire marshal who was on morgue duty at Ground Zero in the months after the attack. He requested anonymity because he made a pledge with other rescue workers that they wouldn't talk to the press and possibly be made out as heroes when they were only doing their duty. "I never took a course in mortuary science," he says. "We just did it. Someone said: 'You guys, you guys, you guys. You're the morgue detail. OK?' 'OK.'" He and his colleagues saw things no one should see, a gruesome view of the worst attack on U.S. soil ever. "People don't know the horror, the real horror in this," he says. "They don't know what we saw. They don't even know most of the people are still at the medical examiner's office." Initially, recovery crews found mostly intact but crushed bodies. "That gave us false hope," he says. "We thought that is what people are going to look like." But those were the victims outside the building. The people trapped inside were caught in the tons of cascading steel and concrete, and were ground to bits, or to literally nothing. Recovery workers were grateful to find any body part, however small. "Usually in a morgue, you don't want to be busy," he says. "But when we had a slow day, it was horrible. It meant we weren't getting anyone back. We knew we had 3,000 people in there, and we needed to get them back." The possibility of giving a family a measure of finality by finding an identifiable remain was what made the work tolerable — barely. "That's the only thing that kept people from jumping in the Hudson River and swimming to New Jersey," he says. Care was taken to honor the dictates of human dignity among the carnage. "If we found a human remain," he says, "we put it on a gurney, we covered it with a flag, and we ceremoniously carried it out." The work went on and on and on. "They were finding remains up to the point we scooped the last bit of dirt up in June 2002," he says. The remains were sent to the city's medical examiner's office, where a heroic effort was undertaken to identify as many of them as possible. Initially, the office thought it would only analyze remains the size of a thumb or larger, but it ended up analyzing smaller parts too. It has stretched the limits of science, attempting to tease fragile DNA clues from decomposed shards of bone. The identifications have slowed considerably, but one was made as recently as Aug. 31, and five total were made in August. Each is a small moral victory, a triumph of respect for individuality in the face of indiscriminate murder. All the remains are being preserved for the day when technological advances will make more identifications possible. Eventually, they will be removed from the examiner's makeshift site — which includes a room where families can grieve and pray — and taken to the official 9/11 memorial at Ground Zero. For now, a mostly unremarked memorial sits in the city's midst, three years later. 19,915. 9,429. 10,486.

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FLUSHED THE JOHNS!

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Originally posted by Massive84 if you want to remember it, go cry in a corner about it like many said the world and this forum is not all about America, if you don't want to forget be my guest, not that many people care, and the ones that DO care are the ones you should corrsspond with, so yes the America forum on TA would be the best place.

Not many people care?...Isn't that hypocrytical? Everyone yaps and yaps about how other nations lose so many innocent lives yet American lives are uncared for?

And this would be the proper forum for it..considering 99.9% of the debates in this room are based on U.S. affairs!

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Originally posted by speedracer_mec What I find funny is how quicky that thread was closed. It was closed in a matter of minutes....like if it was going to cause an uproar on the forums in some form. With so many other threads all over this board causing flame wars and needing moderation...they run and close that thread. Quite frankly, If you dont want to take part of that thread...ignore and let it slip down. Dont post in it , if it offends you and your nation for some reason then just dont take part in it, but obviously posting in this thread shows the animosity some people have for the U.S. One thing I dont understand is with soooooo many threads available on this forum....threads in the music discussion, threads in the new releases, threads in the local forums, threads viewed everyone and sometimes misplaced sometimes in the wrong forum.....WHY POST in a thread that doesnt pertain to you? If you have a problem, dont post in it. Better yet, why not move the thread....closing it in a short span of time is a slap in the face. I understand a remembrance thread doesnt belong in this forum, but when some posters on this forum yell and write very offensive writing(no names), I see that more worthy of banning/closing. Like I said, 9/11 is not more special than any other national tragedy happening worldwide...but feel free to post any of them. I myself will not have any problem with it. Why? Because I have tolerance...something some ignorant people worldwide dont have or havent been taught. I understand this isn't a political/debate issue and doesnt belong in this forum, by why close it in a matter of minutes when you have Noobs in the music discussion always getting (posting nonsense about p2p programs,music dl sites, old subjects)flamed for many many pages without moderation. btw, this isnt a rep/dem issue, this is a nationwide remembrance and quite frankly it should hold true regardless who is in office. Im done posting today....utterly disgusted. My 2cents...

Funny thing about that topic is.

It is closed but not 1 moderator posted why he/she closed it.

I remember JayD saying once if a Mod closes a topic he/she always leaves a msg with the reasons, if not it is useually the topic starter that closed it.

Also, if that topic is closed, why is this one still open? i don't think any mod closed it but the topic starter him/her self, but i could be wrong.

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Originally posted by Octanesyco Greetings. My name is Casey. You can call me Moose. -Moose

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Originally posted by Massive84 Funny thing about that topic is. It is closed but not 1 moderator posted why he/she closed it. I remember JayD saying once if a Mod closes a topic he/she always leaves a msg with the reasons, if not it is useually the topic starter that closed it. Also, if that topic is closed, why is this one still open? i don't think any mod closed it but the topic starter him/her self, but i could be wrong.

The topic starter can not close a thread..he only delete it. So some mod definatley closed it.

Ironic thing about all this is....if i was to make a tribute thread on the lost lives in Rwanda, Grenada, Chile, Russia, El Savador, Spain, Japan, Germany, France, Cambodia, Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, Kosovo, Somalia or any other nation that lost innocent lives due to American interests it would be flooded with people attacking America on how it's foreign policy has killed so many innocent lives. Yet the second an American does it for his own people he gets shut down and told "forget it, move on, nobody cares or the US deserved it"

Seems like people in this forum are content with lost American lives.

Go figure!

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Originally posted by tiesto14 The topic starter can not close a thread..he only delete it. So some mod definatley closed it. Ironic thing about all this is....if i was to make a tribute thread on the lost lives in Rwanda, Grenada, Chile, Russia, El Savador, Spain, Japan, Germany, France, Cambodia, Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, Kosovo, Somalia or any other nation that lost innocent lives due to American interests it would be flooded with people attacking America on how it's foreign policy has killed so many innocent lives. Yet the second an American does it for his own people he gets shut down and told "forget it, move on, nobody cares or the US deserved it" Seems like people in this forum are content with lost American lives. Go figure!

I remember whiskers closed his Own post your picture topic, you can do it with your own topics, with the admin function button.

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Originally posted by Octanesyco Greetings. My name is Casey. You can call me Moose. -Moose

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Originally posted by tiesto14 The topic starter can not close a thread..he only delete it. So some mod definatley closed it. Ironic thing about all this is....if i was to make a tribute thread on the lost lives in Rwanda, Grenada, Chile, Russia, El Savador, Spain, Japan, Germany, France, Cambodia, Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, Kosovo, Somalia or any other nation that lost innocent lives due to American interests it would be flooded with people attacking America on how it's foreign policy has killed so many innocent lives. Yet the second an American does it for his own people he gets shut down and told "forget it, move on, nobody cares or the US deserved it" Seems like people in this forum are content with lost American lives. Go figure!

actually a thread starter CAN close his own thread...to some of the posters on here...wow..just wow not a sence of decency in u i c..the people that died r human beings and u should have the sence of decency to honour em...i bet if it was a thread for the spanish people that died in the recent terrorist act nobody will post such rubbish posts ..if you dont care dont post but dont insult people who r honoring those who past away..just get out of the thread...u should all be ashamed ASHAMED

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Originally posted by speedracer_mec What I find funny is how quicky that thread was closed. It was closed in a matter of minutes....like if it was going to cause an uproar on the forums in some form. With so many other threads all over this board causing flame wars and needing moderation...they run and close that thread. ...

As you noted it wasnt a political discussion - so if it was closed to stop an uproar, why has it turned into that?

Further more it seems to me that Americans want to act defensive on TA. Most of the time I dont see where that comes from. Just the fact that TAs are from a different country seems to spark ire and flame wars!

Guess what, the US makes up no more than 21.72% of the worlds population and that number is decreasing, so I cant fathom why there is so much bitching over internationals posting in what? Thats right- a Canadian forum!

I have never received anything but the utmost respect from international TAs when I treat them with the respect I think I deserve. Yet, the same is not true for US TAs. There is partisan bickering over the slightest unnecessary details - even when dissention isnt needed.

I dont doubt that 911 needs some sort of tribute (tho trancaholic is right tribute sounds dirty, like spectacle). But dont you think the date 9/11/01, 9 Sep 2001, 11.9.01, no matter however you arrange it will forever live in infamy? I think most people in the world understand what that means and that is tribute enough. Posting that stuff on the internet cheapens it - especially when you see some of the crap in the COR.

911 lives in infamy - because both sides acknowledge it. Terror and defeat on one side, Victory for jihad/Bin Laden (whatever that may be) on the other.

Seriously though, until Americans can grow up and listen and get some freakin thick skin this will forever happen. Not just on TA unfortunately|

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'That's like telling a Kodiak bear to stop fcking older men.'

I think along with Israelis on this board Americans probably have the thickest skin. Why do American's act so defensive? Could it be that 80% of the posts in the political forums have to do with either pointing out problems or degrading our country or leaders in some way? If every single topic was about bashing canadians I'm sure you would see many more get defensive about their country, as would any person when their own country is constantly attacked.

Do you honestly think we care what someone a few thousand miles away thinks of us, especially on an internet board? If all the American's were quiet about every post started in some way about our country, this would be a very quiet place.

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a lot of things deserve rememberance and i believe it is acceptable to post on a message board about these dates and events. I'm sure a lot of celebrate your mother's birthdays, the rebirth of jesus christ, your country's day of pride as well as other dates. There is plenty of threads in this forum that i honestly couldn't care about, but i don't go in each to tell them that their time, effort, opinions and views are a burden to everyone else. I grieve 9/11 just as much as i will grieve the slaying of those in Russia. Is there even an ounce of "RIP" in this message board about ANY mass slayings, or is rememberance a burden for those that aren't directly affected?

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Originally posted by BadBadNeil I think along with Israelis on this board Americans probably have the thickest skin. Why do American's act so defensive? Could it be that 80% of the posts in the political forums have to do with either pointing out problems or degrading our country or leaders in some way? If every single topic was about bashing canadians I'm sure you would see many more get defensive about their country, as would any person when their own country is constantly attacked. Do you honestly think we care what someone a few thousand miles away thinks of us, especially on an internet board? If all the American's were quiet about every post started in some way about our country, this would be a very quiet place.

Well I get your point, there is a conundrum when the US is involved in a majority of political action, yet our actual population does not make for majority involvement.

I stand by the thick skinned remark, but perhaps more of what I meant was that, due likely to the 'independent spirit' of Americans we see any criticism as a personal attack. If 80% of the thread here criticize the US, how come most Americans here cannot criticize international politics to the degree that internationals can criticize (or at least bring up and discuss) OUR political actions? Again, its due to our vast influence. Our ignorance to the rest of the world is what is our main downfall- the world isnt getting bigger its getting smaller! And you said it yourself:

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Do you honestly think we care what someone a few thousand miles away thinks of us, especially on an internet board?

Well I care, sometimes. Sure its an internet board and the internet is 99% garbage. I think TA is in the upper echelon of internet sites though DUE to the fact we have such diverse ideas. If you, personally, dont care than I see no purpose for you contributing to a discussion -not that you cannot-. It just seems that if they dont care about you, and you them then why bother? America's unwillingness to acknowledge anyone other than ourselves is the endemic problem I am trying to reach through this post. That viewpoint is bullshit, and if we keep following it its going to bite us in the ass, and likely soon.

We hold ourselves as the richest and most powerful nation in the world. Richest we are not, especially per capita. And as far as most powerful - perhaps - but I believe that also makes us most rash nation to act on the planet. Since we became the singular superpower we have actually decreased our share in ownership of the worlds resources and influence. With every dollar and stock share that gets purchased (by China, for example) because no US citizen could buy it - sends our influence overseas. If our economy struggles- who will be holding the reins?

Pretending that we hold priority in the world is fitting (sometimes). To assume we can continue to ignore the world is horseshit|

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'That's like telling a Kodiak bear to stop fcking older men.'

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Originally posted by biznology Well I care, sometimes. Sure its an internet board and the internet is 99% garbage. I think TA is in the upper echelon of internet sites though DUE to the fact we have such diverse ideas. If you, personally, dont care than I see no purpose for you contributing to a discussion -not that you cannot-. It just seems that if they dont care about you, and you them then why bother? America's unwillingness to acknowledge anyone other than ourselves is the endemic problem I am trying to reach through this post. That viewpoint is bullshit, and if we keep following it its going to bite us in the ass, and likely soon.

Yes sometimes I do wonder why I even bother to debate anything. Debating just seems to be multiple opinions on a single topic by people who never budge anyways. Is the point of the debate to prove a point or to sway the other side because some topics on here are very subjective? I post typically when I see there is a definite right or wrong on a subject that I am interested in, hence why I ignore the majority of topics in the PF.

I don't think not caring about the rest of the world is necessarily self centered or American as you seem to put it. I like knowledge, I read up on the world, but having all the knowledge in the world doesn't mean you necessarily have to care about what is happening. I put priority in the US because I live here and I don't think I should be at fault for doing so.

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We hold ourselves as the richest and most powerful nation in the world. Richest we are not, especially per capita. And as far as most powerful - perhaps - but I believe that also makes us most rash nation to act on the planet. Since we became the singular superpower we have actually decreased our share in ownership of the worlds resources and influence. With every dollar and stock share that gets purchased (by China, for example) because no US citizen could buy it - sends our influence overseas. If our economy struggles- who will be holding the reins? Pretending that we hold priority in the world is fitting (sometimes). To assume we can continue to ignore the world is horseshit|

Richest we are not, however the largest spenders and consumers on the planet we are. Most powerful in terms of buying, spending, and military power? I'd say so. I don't know about acting rash, what is there to base this on other than Iraq? We went into Afghanistan months after being attacked ruthlessly, went into WWII after years of being neutral, same with WWI, went into Desert Storm 1 only after Kuwait was attacked, went into the Koreas after the South was Attacked. People may view our trade policies as rash but our first priority should be to our own people, not to some slave trade owner 5000 miles away who sells goods cheap because of cheap labor. I don't think we are rash at all in our history unless you say this based on a single event.

It is inevitable that China will be a superpower, we shouldn't hold them back from becoming one. They already have a large military, the largest population, and a economy booming at unprecidented rates. I am actually surprised they weren't at this rate years ago. The world is moving more toward a global economy. India and China are both increasing exponentially, Europe is attempting to be more unified and push their trade weight around, the dollar is below the pound and euro, all the world's economies are tied together more than ever. If Japan doesn't get oil and their market crashes for example the entire world will feel it, not just Japan.

I think we are in this position due to the past though and that the world has looked to the US for help not only militarily but for our spending power, aid, and other structural help. We have largely been placed in this position by other countries needing things, not global imperialism only as people like to see it.

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Last edited by BadBadNeil on Sep-11-2004 at 23:50