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Originally posted by BadBadNeil Of course they won't. Freedom has its limitations as it does in any society. If the people of any country voted for someone who was an obvious killer, guilty of committing genocide, perveyor of religious persecution, etc it would never pass. For example if ted bundy was up for president of the USA and somehow the people voted for him, senate would never let it pass as he would be an obvious threat to our country. The same would be true if someone who was an obvious biggot, like a member of the KKK.

well i kinda agree with you. Though that is forcing your own belief system upon another country. so that means unless the new leader belief in what the US belief in, he is not going to be in power. that is regardless of what the iraqi people who was freed think.

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Originally posted by St_Andrew well i kinda agree with you. Though that is forcing your own belief system upon another country. so that means unless the new leader belief in what the US belief in, he is not going to be in power. that is regardless of what the iraqi people who was freed think.

I agree. If the goal is to "liberate" and "spread freedom", then the Iraqis should be free to vote for whoever they wish regardless of US approval. Otherwise, it's like saying "you are now free to vote for whoever I want you to!"

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Christian muslims? Eh, you really left me speechless here...I didn't know such combinations like christian muslims exist. Hey, now that I know these things are possible, maybe I'll become a hinduist protestant...or a shintoist buddhist. You know, maybe you should sit back and be quiet for a while. Just so that you don't embaress yourself even more.

OF COURSE these combinations are possible! Shintoist-Buddhists make up 90% of the population of Japan! Religion has become more and more smeared as mixed-religion families and groups become more acceptable. People don't always "follow" one religion. They often incorporate the customs, traditions, and beliefs of many religions into their own personal beliefs. I know a Muslim who celebrates Christian holidays (ie Christmas) and practices aspects of both faiths. Maybe stuff like this is much more common in Canada than in American culture.

Your ignorance is pretty stunning.

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I am nobody. Nobody is perfect. Therefore I am perfect.

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Originally posted by DJ_Elyot OF COURSE these combinations are possible! Shintoist-Buddhists make up 90% of the population of Japan! Religion has become more and more smeared as mixed-religion families and groups become more acceptable. People don't always "follow" one religion. They often incorporate the customs, traditions, and beliefs of many religions into their own personal beliefs. I know a Muslim who celebrates Christian holidays (ie Christmas) and practices aspects of both faiths. Maybe stuff like this is much more common in Canada than in American culture. Your ignorance is pretty stunning.

In what way do the fundamental tenants of Christianity not contradict with the fundamental tenants of Islam? Both lay the path towards salvation quite clear, and they are not the same path. Since one is defined as a "christian" or a "muslim" in accordance with the theological principle of their respective religions, your friend is about as Christian AND Muslim as I am Jewish due to the rationale that I've spun a dridle once or twice in my life.

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Retro ...

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Originally posted by DJ_Elyot OF COURSE these combinations are possible! Shintoist-Buddhists make up 90% of the population of Japan! Religion has become more and more smeared as mixed-religion families and groups become more acceptable. People don't always "follow" one religion. They often incorporate the customs, traditions, and beliefs of many religions into their own personal beliefs. I know a Muslim who celebrates Christian holidays (ie Christmas) and practices aspects of both faiths. Maybe stuff like this is much more common in Canada than in American culture.

Great point you made DJ_Elyot. I think you drove home the point I was trying to make even better than I did! The point that not every muslim person is a complete believer of Islam. Often as you said religious ideas do get mixed together as a person chooses what they believe. I think this 'customizing' of a religious belief happens often in christianity as well. People often will pick and choose what parts of a christian belief system they agree with and the parts they don't. For example, not all catholics believe in all the catholic doctorine. Actually, I know some people here in the USA who are like that. I have a friend who is christian who believes in reincarnation which is a Hindu belief and contrary to christian doctorine. That might make him a Christian-hindu?? Personally, I think almost all the major religions on earth have some truth in them and are probably related to each other in some way gain parts from a common source.

The big question is, Is there one religion/branch that has all the truths? Christianity, which is the largest religion on earth http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html is very broad and there are many branches of christianity each with differences. Based on my own research there would seem to be really just two unique christian branches in the world; Catholicism and Mormonism. These seem to be the main branches. Off of these branch all the others. Most branching off of catholicism.

Last edited by tecnolover on Oct-20-2004 at 07:33

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Originally posted by tecnolover Based on my own research there would seem to be really just two unique christian branches in the world; Catholicism and Mormonism.

What on earth are you on about? Mormonism is a relatively small Christian offshoot -- it's by no means a major branch of Christianity. A large amount of Christians actually don't even recognize it as Christian at all, but rather a completely different religion with its roots in Christianity.

'Protestantism' is presumably the second major branch, although it's somewhat fragmented and hardly a cohesive bloc.

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Originally posted by tecnolover Yet it impossible for US and the coalition to destroy an entire beleif system and Bush knows this. That is why making Iraq a sucessful democracy is so important. The spread of democracy in the middle east is capable of breaking down the Islamic belief system. That is Bush's vision. Similar to Reagan's vision of Soviet Union. Understand?

Then it's going top be particularly interesting when neo-cons and enthusiastic war supporters realize that the invasion of Iraq has actually advanced the cause of Islamic fundamentalism far better than anything Saddam ever did will. Most likely the Iraqi people will end up electing fundamentalist Islamic leaders (presimuing that the US doesn't fix the result, which is certainly a possibility and not without historical precedent), as they are currently the people who have led the resistence, and the people best placed to gain political leverage in the current chaos that's enveloping the country.

As for how the 'spread of democracy' is going to break down the Islamic belief system, care to enlighten us as to how? Would it be roughly analogous to the way in which the spread of democracy in the west has banished Christianity forever? No doubt that would explain why we have a fundamentalist Christian currently occupying the White House. Honestly, try and think before you type.

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Originally posted by DJ_Elyot OF COURSE these combinations are possible! Shintoist-Buddhists make up 90% of the population of Japan! Religion has become more and more smeared as mixed-religion families and groups become more acceptable. People don't always "follow" one religion. They often incorporate the customs, traditions, and beliefs of many religions into their own personal beliefs. I know a Muslim who celebrates Christian holidays (ie Christmas) and practices aspects of both faiths. Maybe stuff like this is much more common in Canada than in American culture. Your ignorance is pretty stunning.

Well, like occrider said, there are fundamental differences between muslims and christians. You can't believe in christianity if you believe in islam and vice-versa. Like occrider said, if you just go to a celebration of another faith's holiday, it doesn't make you a member of both faiths. You have to choose, and if you say you believe in both, it just means you have no idea about your own religion's principles. It's like me believing that 2+2 is both 4 and 5 at the same time.

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1+1=10

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Originally posted by tecnolover Great point you made DJ_Elyot. I think you drove home the point I was trying to make even better than I did! The point that not every muslim person is a complete believer of Islam.

A muslim is by definition a follower of islam, same as a christian is a follower of christianity. It's like saying that not every christian is a complete believer of christianity. To some extent that is true, but those people are just not educated enough about their own religion, because most religions clearly say that you can't be a partial follower.

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Often as you said religious ideas do get mixed together as a person chooses what they believe. I think this 'customizing' of a religious belief happens often in christianity as well. People often will pick and choose what parts of a christian belief system they agree with and the parts they don't. For example, not all catholics believe in all the catholic doctorine.

Then they simply can't be defined as catholics. Perhaps as christians, but not as catholics. To be a catholic, you have to follow the catholic doctrine. If you don't then you're not a catholic. You can't be half-catholic.

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Actually, I know some people here in the USA who are like that. I have a friend who is christian who believes in reincarnation which is a Hindu belief and contrary to christian doctorine. That might make him a Christian-hindu??

In that case your friend is a total idiot who doesn't know anything about christianity or hinduism. Christianity clearly says you go to either heaven or hell when you die. Hinduism says you get reincarnated into another living entity. Please ask your friend how those two beliefs are remotely compatible.

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Personally, I think almost all the major religions on earth have some truth in them and are probably related to each other in some way gain parts from a common source.

Mostly correct here.

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The big question is, Is there one religion/branch that has all the truths? Christianity, which is the largest religion on earth http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html is very broad and there are many branches of christianity each with differences.

If you read through holy scriptures of each religion, you'll find nonsenses in every one of them. So the answer is no, neither has all the truths.

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Based on my own research there would seem to be really just two unique christian branches in the world; Catholicism and Mormonism. These seem to be the main branches. Off of these branch all the others. Most branching off of catholicism.

Mormonism? Out of all possible christian denominations, you chose the one that could hardly be considered christian at all. Mormonism is a cult invented by a total wacko that has some of its roots in christianity, and that's about it. There are 3 general branches of christianity being catholicism, protestantism, and ortodoxality, and they're all quite similar in their beliefs, they only differ on really minor issues.

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1+1=10

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Originally posted by arctic As for how the 'spread of democracy' is going to break down the Islamic belief system, care to enlighten us as to how? Would it be roughly analogous to the way in which the spread of democracy in the west has banished Christianity forever? No doubt that would explain why we have a fundamentalist Christian currently occupying the White House. Honestly, try and think before you type.

Just because you can't understand a concept someone else says doesn't mean that person is an idiot! Is it so hard for you to understand that a people living under a dictatorship and terroristic regimes don't have much freedom of choice in how they choose to worship?? They have very few freedoms at all compared to western democracies. Democracy in it's truest form allows for freedom of religion as well as many others. If democracy gains a foothold in the middle east I think we will see Islam disintegrate as people choose other forms of worship or even none at all and move towards western ideals socially, economically and religiously. And as someone else mentioned it would also become a region where christianity could be introduced and taught to a people that have been kept 'dumb' and in the dark by their dictator/terroristic goverments for so long.

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Originally posted by tecnolover And as someone else mentioned it would also become a region where christianity could be introduced and taught to a people that have been kept 'dumb' and in the dark by their dictator/terroristic goverments for so long.

so one of the main goals with the iraq war is to intruduce christianity?

and how can you say that they are dumb? to be honest, you are clearly as brainwashed as them, just in a different way.