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cweb
Senior tranceaddict



Registered: Jun 2001
Location: hasle, switzerland

about taliban not beeing content to deliver osama to usa. the taliban agrred to deliver osama to a un-protected justice temple (dunno the word hehe) inside the country. the us of course disagreed, one thing I can undestand, because its somewhat ridicoulus to just go after one man.
the us dont need bombing they need killer troups

And something else. Why the heck is the US Government against an international military tribunal? Europe is very upset about this. Perhaps because this tribunal could bring some asshole-warlords-americans (btw these people exists in all countries so dont get me wrong) to justice, and thats what the us dont want.

Old Post Oct-11-2001 08:58  Switzerland
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Renegade
____________/



Registered: May 2001
Location: Prague, Czech Republic

Well, I was going to stay out of this discussion, but......

If I hear Mr. Bush talk about "justice" one more time, I think I will scream: he has absolutely no idea about what the word means. By bombing Afghanistan and doing everything that he's doing at the moment, he is after revenge not jusice - and there's a big difference. What exactly is bombing Afghanistan going to solve? You get Bin Laden, then what? Someone just steps up and takes his place. Then you've got someone even more pissed off at the US because of all the bombing that's happened in their back-yard, and then you have an even bigger problem. So you retaliate with a bigger strike, which, in turn, gets them even angrier and so on and so on until we're at war. What's the point? Has it solved anything? Has it brought back the lives of those who died on Sept 11? No, it hasn't.

Justice would involve getting into Afghanistan, getting Bin Laden then leaving quietly. I know it's not that simple, but my point is that they've bombed 85(?) sites over the past few days, and has any of them gotten the US anywhere closer to finding Bin Laden and seeking justice? Nope. Bush may have gone some way to getting revenge, but hasn't made a dent in bringing anyone to justice. And don't tell me that those 85 bombs have softened Afghanistan up either - there's nothing left to bomb that's worthwhile in the first place. They can carpet bomb the landscape for years and they'll still be no closer to finding Bin Laden. They would, however, succeed in strengthening his resolve to commit further attrocities, and that's what - in my opinion - is happening now. They're throwing fuel onto the fire nothing more.

The other thing that's annoyed me about this whole ordeal is America's inability to think rationally about why this may have occurred. Nineteen people, in case you were wondering, don't just fly planes into buildings for no reason. Some people say it's because they dislike the west, and believe that the west is morally corrupted or something - which may or may not be true - but it's still not enough to drive someone to take their own life.

Firstly I would argue that their war is not with the west, but with the US. You never see these muslims burning British, French or Canadian flags, even though these countries (as well as several others obviously) are also very powerful representatives of western society. The reason, in my opinion, is because the US - since the 2nd World War - have become almost megalomaniacal in their treatment of foreign affairs or international diplomacy. They are fueled by the misguided belief that their way is the right way and, above all, the only way. They interfere in wars and take sides - sure they may make great allies this way, but look at all the enemies they've made at the same time. How about the Cold War? America disagreed with communism and were so certain that they were right, that they were prepared to bring the world to the brink of a nuclear war to make a point. Addmittedly the Russians were hardly angels in this case, but America took an unnessecarily hardline stance towards something (the system of government in another country) that really didn't concern them. Just take a look at the rampant McCartyism in the 50's and compare it to what's happening now - the only difference now is that America's embarking on a moral war against terrorism in the 00's, instead of communism in the 50's.

So, to put it bluntly, in my opinion it is this patriotic self-righteousness in the way that it's conducted foreign affaris that ignited this recent spaight of terrorism. They put their foot in the door too often in the Middle-East (look at the wars fought against Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, plus all the troops situated in Saudi Arabia, Libya etc, etc.), taking sides, fighting optimistic moral crusades and ending nowhere. They helped Iraq defeat Iran, and no look what's happened. They're helping the northen alliance usurp the Taliban when they have just as bad a track record, and just as solid an Islamic fundamentalist ferver. And if you happen to disagree with the US then it's trade sanctions - no soup for you. The US must take a softer line with these sorts of things otherwise Sept 11 is just going to happen over and over again.

Now I'm not being unsympathetic towards the US when I say all this. I was almost moved to tears several times watching the coverage from New York - I was sincerely moved by the whole ordeal. But in the last few days, watching Bush bomb Afghanistan and threatening to bomb other countries, you kind of wonder if anyone's actually learnt anything. Instead of clambering atop his moral soapbox and preaching bullshit about "justice", George Bush would be better off considering how to prevent this sort of thing from happening in the future, instead taking the predictable knee-jerk reactionary response. Carpet bombing countries who disagree with you (and I don't think Bush needs an excuse to send troops into Afghanistan - they'd be there whether there was evidence pointing to Bin Laden or not) he has to back off, commit only those actions that are necessary to bring those responsible to justice, and to try and understand that the American way of life is not the only way of life. If he fails to do these things, then he should have no reason to be suprised when Sept 11 happens all over again.

Old Post Oct-11-2001 12:58  Australia
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j_spot
retired



Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Calgary

Renegade, who the hell are you? and why are you so smart? Did You steal my brain, becuase you take everything I WANT to say, and say it 407 times better than I ever could. Props AND congrats to you!


___________________
Retired TA.

Old Post Oct-11-2001 15:35 
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cweb
Senior tranceaddict



Registered: Jun 2001
Location: hasle, switzerland

Yup good post Renegade.
Can please someone explain why the USA is against an international "justice temple", who can put americans there too, and is willing to do whatever it needs to stop this?

Old Post Oct-11-2001 16:18  Switzerland
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juzfugen
Senior tranceaddict



Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Everywhere

hey ren you make some good points but i have seen video of late and some years back of people burning european flags right next to ours and yes it is a terror campaign against the west not just the USA just think a couple of years ago the FBI and european counter parts stopped a group of terrorists that were gonna hijack a airliner and crash it into the Eiffle tower in paris(kinda sad to look back at that now ), in 1997 they stopped another group from carbombing Buckingham palace so inway i dont think it is just against the USA but right now it is focused on us.In the bombings I somewhat agree with the "why are we bombing them" but for a different reason the fist couple of days to knock airports and communication, and anti aircraft weapons sure but thats about it my difference and i know ill get flammed is we as the USA are dropping ordinence on targets that cost 1/10 of the ordinence and thats just plain stupid. a 5 million dollar cruise missle to knock out a bunch of tents. i dont know if you live in the US but there has been an antsy feeling of late of why havent we done something in response yet so i think we have shown great restain as of so far.See i think in all of the this we forget who we are dealing with here : Bin laden and the Taliban bin laden has tons and tons of money to carrey out these plans and a government to back him they society back to how it was 2ooo years ago they want all western influence out of the middle east not just the USA but all
do you know who afghanastans largest trading partner is ....Germany
they will hurt the German economy did you know that a woman has absolutly no rights over there there are pubicly held executions and punishments every friday night if a woman is caught talking to a man who is not in her immediate familiy she can been whipped to death if her barouq(the long veil)falls off and shows anypart of her body she can punished and its a harsh punishment.the US has been sending millions and millions in food releif the afghanastan in past several years and the taliban has been stock piling it in wharehouse thats one of the main reasons they are as famished as they are
So if the US takes a softer line towards these kind of acts what do you guys think is gonna happen you think it will stop. you think some group is gonna go blow up another american building and we dont respond you honestly think they will stop. i sure dont and the majority of the world doesnt either. this soft line is part of the problem when America really showed its might in the later part of last century (60's 70' 80 's)these terrorist groups did not attack us why because they were scared of the US after the end of the cold war america got soft and pacified this politicall correctness bullshit took over (ie dont offend someone be nice ) so this al qaiada group starts its mission and at first we dont retaliate and then we just lob some missles over there and these guys are thinking this is retaliation??? over here if a a woman loses her veil we nearly beat them to death.so what im getting at is that these terrorist people dont think like me and you or rationalize like me and you the ONLY way to deal with them is by force period thats all they understand
And for the American way of life it is the only way of life
for us because we are Americans an we believe very strongly in our ideals and i for one will and have out my life on the line to defend these ideals we chose to live this way because we like it.And it seems that preatty much the majority of the world agrres also seeing how so many forms of government are based on ours our way of life is embraced almost evreywhere and thats fine evrything of america that gos into a country gets something added to it from its own country like the mcdonalds here and abroad and different(i couldnt think of another example but i know there are many) ive american cloths music tv shows movies all sorts of products all over the world and that is part of the American way of life

Old Post Oct-11-2001 17:08  United States
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juzfugen
Senior tranceaddict



Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Everywhere

quote:
Originally posted by juzfugen
hey ren you make some good points but i have seen video of late and some years back of people burning european flags right next to ours and yes it is a terror campaign against the west not just the USA just think a couple of years ago the FBI and european counter parts stopped a group of terrorists that were gonna hijack a airliner and crash it into the Eiffle tower in paris(kinda sad to look back at that now ), in 1997 they stopped another group from carbombing Buckingham palace so inway i dont think it is just against the USA but right now it is focused on us.In the bombings I somewhat agree with the "why are we bombing them" but for a different reason the fist couple of days to knock airports and communication, and anti aircraft weapons sure but thats about it my difference and i know ill get flammed is we as the USA are dropping ordinence on targets that cost 1/10 of the ordinence and thats just plain stupid. a 5 million dollar cruise missle to knock out a bunch of tents. i dont know if you live in the US but there has been an antsy feeling of late of why havent we done something in response yet so i think we have shown great restain as of so far.See i think in all of the this we forget who we are dealing with here : Bin laden and the Taliban bin laden has tons and tons of money to carrey out these plans and a government to back him they want society back to how it was 2ooo years ago they want all western influence out of the middle east not just the USA but all
do you know who afghanastans largest trading partner is ....Germany
that would hurt the German economy if they stopped trading ,did you know that a woman has absolutly no rights over there there are pubicly held executions and punishments every friday night if a woman is caught talking to a man who is not in her immediate familiy she can been whipped to death if her barouq(the long veil)falls off and shows anypart of her body she can punished and its a harsh punishment these are are human rights violations why do think no governments recognize that regime.The US has been sending millions and millions in food releif the afghanastan in past several years and the taliban has been stock pilling it in wharehouse and disperssing it it all to its people who it was intended for, thats one of the main reasons they are as famished as they are.
So if the US takes a softer line towards these kind of acts what do you guys think is gonna happen you think it will stop. you think some group is gonna go blow up another american building and we dont respond you honestly think they will stop. i sure dont and the majority of the world doesnt either. this soft line is part of the problem when America really showed its might in the later part of last century (60's 70' 80 's)these terrorist groups did not attack us why because they were scared of the US after the end of the cold war america got soft and pacified this politicall correctness bullshit took over (ie dont offend someone be nice ) so this al qaiada group starts its mission and at first we dont retaliate and then we just lob some missles over there and these guys are thinking this is retaliation??? over here if a a woman loses her veil we nearly beat them to death.so what im getting at is that these terrorist people dont think like me and you or rationalize like me and you the ONLY way to deal with them is by force period thats all they understand
And for the American way of life it is the only way of life
for us because we are Americans an we believe very strongly in our ideals and i for one will and have out my life on the line to defend these ideals we chose to live this way because we like it.And it seems that preatty much the majority of the world agrres also seeing how so many forms of government are based on ours our way of life is embraced almost evreywhere and thats fine evrything of america that gos into a country gets something added to it from its own country like the mcdonalds here and abroad and different(i couldnt think of another example but i know there are many) ive seen american cloths music tv shows movies all sorts of products all over the world and that is part of the American way of life. and these countries that want to reject this way, the western way of life will be stuck as third world countries until they change their tune. is not our doing alone its this new global economy if you dont jump on the bandwagon you'll be left behind

Old Post Oct-11-2001 17:19  United States
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cweb
Senior tranceaddict



Registered: Jun 2001
Location: hasle, switzerland

Yes its true that europe is somewhat a target too, especially the UK, the EU and perhaps Germany because of their past. But the main target is still the USA.
Something who irritates me a lot: If the US want to send ground troops to afghanistan, which they should do, else the bombings are COMPLETELY unnecessary, there will be a very bad winter just in some weeks. Reports say that there will be snow everywhere in the mountains and that mechanical troups will be meaningless. So the troops should literally fight one against one the guerillas? the future does not look very bright!

Old Post Oct-11-2001 18:30  Switzerland
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Miss Proximus
titelloos



Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Block II, Cell 13

quote:
Originally posted by juzfugen
And for the American way of life it is the only way of life
for us because we are Americans an we believe very strongly in our ideals and i for one will and have out my life on the line to defend these ideals


Kinda seems like the same thing a fanatic muslim would say.....no offense juzfugen


___________________
Mayibuye Africa!Viva Mexico - Hasta la Chingada!Malaysia I will be there

Old Post Oct-11-2001 18:43  Netherlands
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AnotherWay83
The B00b Maintenance Guy™



Registered: Aug 2000
Location: land of d(-_-)b

this thread is pointless...so far i haven't seen anything in this thread that hasn't already been posted SEVERAL times already in many similar threads...everybody still has the same views...so why r we wasting space??

lol and i wont waste anymore space either

peace

Old Post Oct-11-2001 18:51 
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Eugene
EURO-Hard-Trance-Addict



Registered: May 2001
Location: Maryland USA

Some of you behave as if you're some smart military experts or war specialists, saying things like "it's pointless dropping bombs there" or "it will achieve nothing" or some other crap like that.

Well, I just want to tell you something that probably never crossed your narrow minds.

The people who planned, analyzed, and are now carrying out America's response to the murderous terror of Sept. 11 are not idiots. They know exactly what they're doing, why, and how they're doing it, what to expect, and what to do. They are qualified professionals knowing extremely well every branch, every tentacle of the operation and possible effects.

So before you say another stupidity like "they'll kill lots of civilians" or "they're stupid and won't get anywhere" think twice.
If they didn't have absolutely convincing evidence of Bin Laden's guilt and Taliban's involvement they would never be able to persuade Muslim countries like Pakistan to join the coalition, or the coalition wouldn't be as broad. But the US demonstrated this irrefutable evidence to many countries last week, including Russia, Tajikistan, Egypt. And they showed all this evidence "eye-to-eye" to Musharraf, by the way -- the Pakistani general.

In summary, one thing is certain: they're certainly more intelligent than YOU. So don't act like you know what you're talking about when it comes to the operation.

And by the way, many people (justifiably) dislike Americans, but don't lie to yourselves -- America has a PROFOUND influence on your life and culture, on the fact that you all speak English, on the Internet, on everything. Even the movies you watch.


___________________

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Last edited by Eugene on Oct-11-2001 at 19:12

Old Post Oct-11-2001 19:03  Russia
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Miss Proximus
titelloos



Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Block II, Cell 13

quote:
Originally posted by Eugene
The people who planned, analyzed, and are now carrying out America's response to the murderous terror of Sept. 11 are not idiots. They know exactly what they're doing, why, and how they're doing it, what to expect, and what to do. They are qualified professionals knowing extremely well every branch, every tentacle of the operation and possible effects.


D00d, that makes me think of Vietnam and all the failures over there


___________________
Mayibuye Africa!Viva Mexico - Hasta la Chingada!Malaysia I will be there

Old Post Oct-11-2001 19:07  Netherlands
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AnotherWay83
The B00b Maintenance Guy™



Registered: Aug 2000
Location: land of d(-_-)b

ok i've decided to waste sum space...couldn't help it..

eugene d00d...i agree that these ppl. know what they're doing, but then they "knew what they were doing" in vietnam as well (good point there raised by miss proxi)...look at the russians...surely, they also knew what the hell they were doing in afghanistan, they were also a great superpower...but they failed...ok so u mite say sumthing like "but the US was helping the rebels"...but what about chechnya...sure russia had lost its former superpower status, but still *theoretically* speaking, the chechnyans should not have been a match for the russians...and they still kicked butt...

spain is fighting the basque separatists, even the israeli mossad, which is almost as good as the CIA, has its failures...

dont forget that the next attack mite not even be a "conventional" terrorist attack...

but yes, its true that the US influence is simply amazing, i know because i myself am an immigrant here...many native borns i think dont even realize this...

and i dont think the situation would have been any different if sum other country was in place of the US...and i do think that if it wasn't for the US, the world would have been a different place...the US has done many crappy things, but it has also dun many great things...

ok no more space wasting and thats a deadly promise

peace

Old Post Oct-11-2001 19:49 
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