I'll tell you a winning ticket for the democratic party:






Appealing to the convicts of the democratic party



and Hitlary appeals to all the other scumbags

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka I dunno, IMHO, Air America Radio has lacked any substance when I've listened to it. Limbaugh may be loud and outspoken, but he tends to address issues whereas a lot of the people on Air America just spout hate and call people on the right names. Garoffolo and Franken have made a new career out of it.

So Randi Rhodes never mentions any facts on her show? And you might want to listen to Franken when he has on his resident ditto head, they debunk a lot of what Limbaugh says, because it's completely outrageous rhetoric.

___________________
Download My Spring '08 Mix Here

Thurs May 15: Influence @ Tini Martini w/ Kris B. vs. Nosmo, Rikler & Mike Palmeri
Thurs June 5: Under the Influence @ Tini Martini w/Mathias Matthew, Jack Kim & more TBA

If I may interject for a moment between Speed's sophmoric picture hunting and Q5's retort on the liberals' lack of "core values", I'd like to say a few things on the matter.

First, in response to Q5's response, which is something that is echoed throughout all of the conservative media right now, I simply must give all of you non-critical conservative thinkers a nice, warm, cup of "STICK IT IN YOUR FUCKING EAR DOUCHEBAGS!" I really tend to wonder if you conservative blokes here really truly analyze anything past the RNC/Hannity/Limbaugh talking points here. You simply must forgive me for not feeling it too important to listen to our opponents give us advice as to where we could have done better, ESPECIALLY when I hear of the hypocritical blather such as this talk about Democrats not having core values.

It may be a bit unfamiliar to you conservative echochamber folks out there, but us Democrats really do try our darnest not to be fucking hypocritical lying bastards when it comes to speaking of values and morality. You see, we have a tendency to see the larger picture involved with morality and values, and try not to cookie cut it down to those simple, distorted, and outright false impressions of what "values" truly are, such as:

1. Vote for Kerry and you'll see how gays destroy the sanctity of marriage.

Nevermind the fact that, as stated many times, this is an illogical argument on its face, considering how Kerry's state has the lowest divorce rate, but still finds it appropriate to allow the same rights and legal status for anyone's sexual homo sapien preference. And, of course, let's also not forget what region, as well as what religious belief system, tends to hold the highest divorce rate.

You wanna protect the fucking sanctity of marriage, why don't you fucking Southern Christians take a good, hard, fucking look in the mirror first before you find it necessary to pass judgement onto others? But you wouldn't do that, would you? You'd rather just adhere to your typical stereotypes that you continue to hold so dear, while not even batting an eye at the Republican National Committee handing out highly discriminatory, anti-gay fliers in states such as Virginia and Arkansas. It matches your fucking "values" system just fine? So be it then. Twisted as it is, the one thing that I've learned is it's extremely difficult to change a person or group's stereotypes, especially when religion is involved. To be honest, I have no intention of trying, and I hope the Dems. follow suit.

2. Vote for Kerry and millions of innocent unborn babies will continue to be murdered.

-On the face this is, of course, patently ironic, considering how many tens of thousands innocent people we have killed in Iraq already, especially with a war based on false pretenses no less. But I think we can also take the scope of this argument even further, as Occ had done so well here, and demonstrate quite clearly how those who argue this point are often the ones who seem to miss the bigger picture about protecting one's life in general. In case you weren't aware, hardcore pro-lifers, life does in fact go on after birth, and I fail to see how one can go to such great lengths to protect the life of an unborn child, such as the likely future overturning of Roe v. Wade, and yet feel complacent about our Republican government who seemingly has a much greater job to protect lives AFTER birth, but continues to miss the boat. If there's any reason to feel complacent about your stance on protecting the rights of an unborn child, then I see no reason why you should be equally rigorous on your efforts to protect those over 4 million people who've dipped into poverty under Bush's watch in the last 4 years.

And for all you advocates for the partial birth abortion ban, suppose you could give me one fucking, solid good reason why you think our President was right in signing a bill that clearly and explicitly reveals that the rights of the LIFE of a woman were not as important as the rights of the child. You have any solid explanation why you think a woman's right to live, God forbid if it ever came down to that decision, is somehow and in some way NOT as important as the unborn child, and that the birth of a child MUST be protected in all circumstances? You think it's any mystery why a number of judges across the country have struck down this law specifically for this language in the bill?

And this brings me back to discussing those supposed "core values" that us Democrats seem to be "lacking", according to Q5 and the rest of the Conservative mouthpieces. It must seem strange to you to hear individuals like Barrack Obama discussing God and his beliefs not as a fucking deliberate wedge on particular issues such as whom you're sleeping with or who's getting an abortion. He has the delighful ability to see the larger picture with his religion and be able to reflect on it, and really demonstrate what his religion and his beliefs mean to him -

We are all one people. E pluribus unum. Out of many, one. Please, I ask you to read his speech again here. This type of language inspires not just the religious, but can be embraced by everyone, including those agnostics, deists, and atheists, who all have the same vision - what we do we affect not just ourselves, but everyone. We have to take care of ALL our people, not just the few on the top which the majority of Bush's tax cuts went to. Our society works and progresses forward at a much more efficient and profound manner when EVERYONE gets help, when EVERYONE, the lower, middle, and upper class are all moving forward.

And for those who are religious on the Left, they truly believe that this societal value is that which Jesus wanted us to know, understand, and take hold above all other societal values. They believe that this value is the true message of Jesus, which he has described countless times in the 4 gospels in numerous ways about helping the poor, feeding the needy, giving them a leg up in life, and so on.

They consider this value above any so-called anti-gay value that has so effectively split our country into two. In fact, I challenge you to demonstrate anywhere in the 4 gospels where Jesus said anything in regards to the deviance of homosexual behavior. Oh sure, you can find it in Romans, Leviticus, and Corinthians I believe, but you'd really think that Jesus, the ALL powerful Son of God, would certainly have something to say about this incredible issue?

He does not, so you simply must forgive the Liberal Christians for not believing this is as critical an issue.

And while you're at it, could you tell me where Jesus says anything about tax cuts? In fact, doesn't he say something to the effect of the exact opposite?

Now I won't state flat out that you Conservatives don't believe in a healthy, cohesive society progressing forward either. In your heart I know this is what you want as well. But ask yourself, considering that over the last 4 years we have seen a greater division between the have and have-nots, a HUGE rise in those without healthcare and insurance, a monumental rise in those in poverty, and continuing to underfund our public schools, has our current course really been the answer? And by continuing to push our country into a considerable debt, having our local taxes continue to rise, (which does have a regressive effect on the lower class BTW), thus voiding any effects that the federal tax cuts have given many lower-middle workers, failing to put a cap on any prescription drugs, and by privatizing Social Security which may or may not help the younger generations but has absolutely no answer to the $1 trillion or so not going into our Treasury that ensures a coupla generations before us any assistance, is our future direction really the answer to protecting and helping all the people?

What's so terrific about Obama and the other Liberal Christians is that his beliefs and core values can still be in congruence with the rest of us non-Christians, and there is no wedge issue that we have to step back on. He sees and understands the idea that a strong middle class and by helping the lower working class as much as possible, our society does in fact move forward more efficienty. We do not have to hope and pray for the trickle down effect of the tax cuts, which bring immediate stimulus but uncertain long-term effects other than an eventual debt that unfortunately forces a tax hike.

So you must forgive us Liberals and Progressives for not feeling it necessary to wear our religion on our sleeve, nor feel it necessary to wedge it right down the throats of voters and tear our country in half, as well as force those beliefs into law because you continue to fallaciously feel that this is somehow a "Christian nation". If you haven't grasped the idea the error not only in this false historical notion, but the fact that we are indeed a melting pot nation, I fear you never will. You Conservatives have done a terrific job over the past 2 decades effectively enforcing this religous wedge down our culture, especially in the rural areas where it once mattered more to these working class folk how they were going to feed their children better or pay for their medical bills instead of running to the Emergency Room because they simply can't afford health insurance anymore. No, God and Gays somehow got their attention and has remained that way.

At our current rate, this will not last. As I said before, I emplore all Dems. to sit back over the next 2 years and watch where the Conservatives will continue to take our country. Argue your issues and policies, but allow the "mandated majority" to have their way. Honestly, you have no choice anyway. I see no fiscal responsibility in our President or our GOP Congress, nor do I personally see how Iraq can miraculously turn itself around and become an all-loving, peaceful democracy thanks to us. You can smokescreen reality with these so-called religious wedge issues for only so long, but reality will eventually catch up. In to be honest, it did catch up. Take a look at this:

States Moving From pro-RNC Partisan Index to pro-DNC Partisan Index

IA
2004 - DNC +2.1
2000 - RNC +0.2

NV
2004 - DNC +0.4
2000 - RNC +4.1

NH
2004 - DNC +4.2
2000 - RNC +1.8

NM
2004 - DNC +1.3
2000 - RNC +0.5

OH
2004 - DNC +0.5
2000 - RNC +4.0

OR
2004 - DNC +8.0
2000 - RNC +0.3

WI
2004 - DNC +3.4
2000 - RNC +0.3

We now hold the partisan advantage in 24 states plus DC (worth 289 electoral votes, up from 231), while Republicans hold the advantage in 26 states (worth 249 electoral votes, down from 307). Kerry-Edwards almost won the Electoral College despite losing the popular vote by 2.5%.

Want some more gains? Sure-


CO
2004 - RNC +3.2
2000 - RNC +8.9

ME
2004 - DNC +11.0
2000 - DNC +4.6

MI
2004 - DNC +6.4
2000 - DNC +4.6

MN
2004 - DNC +6.4
2000 - DNC +1.9

PA
2004 - DNC +5.2
2000 - DNC +3.7

VA
2004 - RNC +5.6
2000 - RNC +8.5

VT
2004 - DNC +23.6
2000 - DNC +9.4

WA
2004 - DNC +10.4
2000 - DNC +5.1

All in all, Democrats now hold a +6.0 or greater partisan advantage in states worth 217 electoral votes (up from 168). By contrast, Republicans now hold a +6.0 or greater advantage in the partisan index in states worth 200 electoral votes (down from 211). This campaign structurally shifted the Electoral College 58 votes in our favor overall, and shifted the two electoral bases 60 votes in our favor. When it came to the battleground, this was an incredibly strong campaign on our part. For the sake of comparison, here are how other Democratic tickets fared:

Democratic Partisan Index Gain (in 2004 EV's)
2004
Overall - +58
Base - +60

2000
Overall - -41
Base - +37

1996
Overall - +22
Base - -51

1992
Overall - +7
Base - +51

1988
Overall - +18
Base - +6

1984
Overall - -34
Base - -15

1980
Overall - +3
Base - -8

I've heard all I need to hear from the Conservative mouthpieces stating that the sleeping giant of Conservative Christians have been awakened this time around. Perhaps so. But I'm more than content to have you Conservatives continue to ignore our Progressive movement slowly gathering steam right behind you. You were not the only group to have stirred up a sleeper, but I hope you continue to pat yourselves on the back in your arrogance and continue to ignore the 48% of individuals who believe your President and way of doing government is completely disasterous. Reality is not in your favor unless you can somehow turn things around, and I'm more than happy to bet against that outcome.

You think you woke up a giant? Good. You keep movin' down the arrogant path you have chosen. Pay no attention to the rising monster you have successfully created behind you. I'd rather like it that way.

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

Hey, Opus, it's Friday. That's a hell of a response for a Friday! Join me for a cocktail later if you will. It really takes the edge off.

In the words of Tupac, "I ain't mad atcha. I got nothin' but love for ya." I hope that's a 2-way street. Ultimately we all want what's best for eachother. We just like to beat eachother over the head to get the point across.


hehe--at first I thought you said "Vote for Kerry and millions of innocent unicorn babies will continue to be murdered. As a conservative thinker, I believe it is imperative that we preserve the youth of the unicorns.

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka Hey, Opus, it's Friday. That's a hell of a response for a Friday! Join me for a cocktail later if you will. It really takes the edge off. In the words of Tupac, "I ain't mad atcha. I got nothin' but love for ya." I hope that's a 2-way street. Ultimately we all want what's best for eachother. We just like to beat eachother over the head to get the point across.

Whatcha drinkin'? Hope it goes well with these sour grapes I'm eatin'.

Bah, just blowin' off steam. Sorry.

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 Whatcha drinkin'? Hope it goes well with these sour grapes I'm eatin'. Bah, just blowin' off steam. Sorry.

I'm a beer man by trade, but the old man left a nice bottle of scotch in my liquor cabinet the last time he was in town. Tonight might be just the occasion. Bottoms up!

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 If I may interject for a moment between Speed's sophmoric picture hunting and Q5's retort on the liberals' lack of "core values", I'd like to say a few things on the matter. First, in response to Q5's response, which is something that is echoed throughout all of the conservative media right now, I simply must give all of you non-critical conservative thinkers a nice, warm, cup of "STICK IT IN YOUR FUCKING EAR DOUCHEBAGS!" I really tend to wonder if you conservative blokes here really truly analyze anything past the RNC/Hannity/Limbaugh talking points here. You simply must forgive me for not feeling it too important to listen to our opponents give us advice as to where we could have done better, ESPECIALLY when I hear of the hypocritical blather such as this talk about Democrats not having core values. It may be a bit unfamiliar to you conservative echochamber folks out there, but us Democrats really do try our darnest not to be fucking hypocritical lying bastards when it comes to speaking of values and morality. You see, we have a tendency to see the larger picture involved with morality and values, and try not to cookie cut it down to those simple, distorted, and outright false impressions of what "values" truly are, such as: 1. Vote for Kerry and you'll see how gays destroy the sanctity of marriage. Nevermind the fact that, as stated many times, this is an illogical argument on its face, considering how Kerry's state has the lowest divorce rate, but still finds it appropriate to allow the same rights and legal status for anyone's sexual homo sapien preference. And, of course, let's also not forget what region, as well as what religious belief system, tends to hold the highest divorce rate. You wanna protect the fucking sanctity of marriage, why don't you fucking Southern Christians take a good, hard, fucking look in the mirror first before you find it necessary to pass judgement onto others? But you wouldn't do that, would you? You'd rather just adhere to your typical stereotypes that you continue to hold so dear, while not even batting an eye at the Republican National Committee handing out highly discriminatory, anti-gay fliers in states such as Virginia and Arkansas. It matches your fucking "values" system just fine? So be it then. Twisted as it is, the one thing that I've learned is it's extremely difficult to change a person or group's stereotypes, especially when religion is involved. To be honest, I have no intention of trying, and I hope the Dems. follow suit. 2. Vote for Kerry and millions of innocent unborn babies will continue to be murdered. -On the face this is, of course, patently ironic, considering how many tens of thousands innocent people we have killed in Iraq already, especially with a war based on false pretenses no less. But I think we can also take the scope of this argument even further, as Occ had done so well here, and demonstrate quite clearly how those who argue this point are often the ones who seem to miss the bigger picture about protecting one's life in general. In case you weren't aware, hardcore pro-lifers, life does in fact go on after birth, and I fail to see how one can go to such great lengths to protect the life of an unborn child, such as the likely future overturning of Roe v. Wade, and yet feel complacent about our Republican government who seemingly has a much greater job to protect lives AFTER birth, but continues to miss the boat. If there's any reason to feel complacent about your stance on protecting the rights of an unborn child, then I see no reason why you should be equally rigorous on your efforts to protect those over 4 million people who've dipped into poverty under Bush's watch in the last 4 years. And for all you advocates for the partial birth abortion ban, suppose you could give me one fucking, solid good reason why you think our President was right in signing a bill that clearly and explicitly reveals that the rights of the LIFE of a woman were not as important as the rights of the child. You have any solid explanation why you think a woman's right to live, God forbid if it ever came down to that decision, is somehow and in some way NOT as important as the unborn child, and that the birth of a child MUST be protected in all circumstances? You think it's any mystery why a number of judges across the country have struck down this law specifically for this language in the bill? And this brings me back to discussing those supposed "core values" that us Democrats seem to be "lacking", according to Q5 and the rest of the Conservative mouthpieces. It must seem strange to you to hear individuals like Barrack Obama discussing God and his beliefs not as a fucking deliberate wedge on particular issues such as whom you're sleeping with or who's getting an abortion. He has the delighful ability to see the larger picture with his religion and be able to reflect on it, and really demonstrate what his religion and his beliefs mean to him - We are all one people. E pluribus unum. Out of many, one. Please, I ask you to read his speech again here. This type of language inspires not just the religious, but can be embraced by everyone, including those agnostics, deists, and atheists, who all have the same vision - what we do we affect not just ourselves, but everyone. We have to take care of ALL our people, not just the few on the top which the majority of Bush's tax cuts went to. Our society works and progresses forward at a much more efficient and profound manner when EVERYONE gets help, when EVERYONE, the lower, middle, and upper class are all moving forward. And for those who are religious on the Left, they truly believe that this societal value is that which Jesus wanted us to know, understand, and take hold above all other societal values. They believe that this value is the true message of Jesus, which he has described countless times in the 4 gospels in numerous ways about helping the poor, feeding the needy, giving them a leg up in life, and so on. They consider this value above any so-called anti-gay value that has so effectively split our country into two. In fact, I challenge you to demonstrate anywhere in the 4 gospels where Jesus said anything in regards to the deviance of homosexual behavior. Oh sure, you can find it in Romans, Leviticus, and Corinthians I believe, but you'd really think that Jesus, the ALL powerful Son of God, would certainly have something to say about this incredible issue? He does not, so you simply must forgive the Liberal Christians for not believing this is as critical an issue. And while you're at it, could you tell me where Jesus says anything about tax cuts? In fact, doesn't he say something to the effect of the exact opposite? Now I won't state flat out that you Conservatives don't believe in a healthy, cohesive society progressing forward either. In your heart I know this is what you want as well. But ask yourself, considering that over the last 4 years we have seen a greater division between the have and have-nots, a HUGE rise in those without healthcare and insurance, a monumental rise in those in poverty, and continuing to underfund our public schools, has our current course really been the answer? And by continuing to push our country into a considerable debt, having our local taxes continue to rise, (which does have a regressive effect on the lower class BTW), thus voiding any effects that the federal tax cuts have given many lower-middle workers, failing to put a cap on any prescription drugs, and by privatizing Social Security which may or may not help the younger generations but has absolutely no answer to the $1 trillion or so not going into our Treasury that ensures a coupla generations before us any assistance, is our future direction really the answer to protecting and helping all the people? What's so terrific about Obama and the other Liberal Christians is that his beliefs and core values can still be in congruence with the rest of us non-Christians, and there is no wedge issue that we have to step back on. He sees and understands the idea that a strong middle class and by helping the lower working class as much as possible, our society does in fact move forward more efficienty. We do not have to hope and pray for the trickle down effect of the tax cuts, which bring immediate stimulus but uncertain long-term effects other than an eventual debt that unfortunately forces a tax hike. So you must forgive us Liberals and Progressives for not feeling it necessary to wear our religion on our sleeve, nor feel it necessary to wedge it right down the throats of voters and tear our country in half, as well as force those beliefs into law because you continue to fallaciously feel that this is somehow a "Christian nation". If you haven't grasped the idea the error not only in this false historical notion, but the fact that we are indeed a melting pot nation, I fear you never will. You Conservatives have done a terrific job over the past 2 decades effectively enforcing this religous wedge down our culture, especially in the rural areas where it once mattered more to these working class folk how they were going to feed their children better or pay for their medical bills instead of running to the Emergency Room because they simply can't afford health insurance anymore. No, God and Gays somehow got their attention and has remained that way. At our current rate, this will not last. As I said before, I emplore all Dems. to sit back over the next 2 years and watch where the Conservatives will continue to take our country. Argue your issues and policies, but allow the "mandated majority" to have their way. Honestly, you have no choice anyway. I see no fiscal responsibility in our President or our GOP Congress, nor do I personally see how Iraq can miraculously turn itself around and become an all-loving, peaceful democracy thanks to us. You can smokescreen reality with these so-called religious wedge issues for only so long, but reality will eventually catch up. In to be honest, it did catch up. Take a look at this: States Moving From pro-RNC Partisan Index to pro-DNC Partisan Index IA 2004 - DNC +2.1 2000 - RNC +0.2 NV 2004 - DNC +0.4 2000 - RNC +4.1 NH 2004 - DNC +4.2 2000 - RNC +1.8 NM 2004 - DNC +1.3 2000 - RNC +0.5 OH 2004 - DNC +0.5 2000 - RNC +4.0 OR 2004 - DNC +8.0 2000 - RNC +0.3 WI 2004 - DNC +3.4 2000 - RNC +0.3 We now hold the partisan advantage in 24 states plus DC (worth 289 electoral votes, up from 231), while Republicans hold the advantage in 26 states (worth 249 electoral votes, down from 307). Kerry-Edwards almost won the Electoral College despite losing the popular vote by 2.5%. Want some more gains? Sure- CO 2004 - RNC +3.2 2000 - RNC +8.9 ME 2004 - DNC +11.0 2000 - DNC +4.6 MI 2004 - DNC +6.4 2000 - DNC +4.6 MN 2004 - DNC +6.4 2000 - DNC +1.9 PA 2004 - DNC +5.2 2000 - DNC +3.7 VA 2004 - RNC +5.6 2000 - RNC +8.5 VT 2004 - DNC +23.6 2000 - DNC +9.4 WA 2004 - DNC +10.4 2000 - DNC +5.1 All in all, Democrats now hold a +6.0 or greater partisan advantage in states worth 217 electoral votes (up from 168). By contrast, Republicans now hold a +6.0 or greater advantage in the partisan index in states worth 200 electoral votes (down from 211). This campaign structurally shifted the Electoral College 58 votes in our favor overall, and shifted the two electoral bases 60 votes in our favor. When it came to the battleground, this was an incredibly strong campaign on our part. For the sake of comparison, here are how other Democratic tickets fared: Democratic Partisan Index Gain (in 2004 EV's) 2004 Overall - +58 Base - +60 2000 Overall - -41 Base - +37 1996 Overall - +22 Base - -51 1992 Overall - +7 Base - +51 1988 Overall - +18 Base - +6 1984 Overall - -34 Base - -15 1980 Overall - +3 Base - -8 I've heard all I need to hear from the Conservative mouthpieces stating that the sleeping giant of Conservative Christians have been awakened this time around. Perhaps so. But I'm more than content to have you Conservatives continue to ignore our Progressive movement slowly gathering steam right behind you. You were not the only group to have stirred up a sleeper, but I hope you continue to pat yourselves on the back in your arrogance and continue to ignore the 48% of individuals who believe your President and way of doing government is completely disasterous. Reality is not in your favor unless you can somehow turn things around, and I'm more than happy to bet against that outcome. You think you woke up a giant? Good. You keep movin' down the arrogant path you have chosen. Pay no attention to the rising monster you have successfully created behind you. I'd rather like it that way.

quote:

Originally posted by JM your posts are intelligent, and all i can do is quote and say "i agree" i agree.

Great post Opus, I read it all. I agree.

I also agree that arrogance get's you nowhere (this speedracer guy).

Maybe they DON'T know and forget that 49% of America agree's with what their opposed to. As I said before, that's a pretty damn big margin.

I don't mind though as to these really backup your "positions" and just make yourself seem, well, ......

Rodas

___________________
Signature

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 1. Vote for Kerry and you'll see how gays destroy the sanctity of marriage. 2. Vote for Kerry and millions of innocent unborn babies will continue to be murdered.

Well, I am back after a long time. And I am here to give my 2 cents.
On my campus, I heard this:

Bush will bring back the draft! The House defeated a draft bill 402-2. These tactics were used by both sides.

I respect your views on liberal Christians but the Christians in the Midwest here tend to be the uber-conservative type. They hear abortion and scream EVIL!!!!!

I noticed gains in the DNC according to your figures and that party fluctuation happens depending on the election cycle. Many of those DNC growth was from the "Anybody but Bush" crowd. When Ashton Kutcher was in Minnesota I saw him. He was an idiot, screaming about the draft and how Bush raised taxes. Fear is an effective weapon. The draft, the future of Social Security, The War on Terror to name a few.

I was able to see Dick Cheney and John Edwards during visits to Minnesota. I made the effort to drive several hours to see them. Their speeches and platforms sounded the same. Edwards said he would help farmers and fight the war on terror more effectively, as did Cheney.

I personally voted for Bush even though I disagree with a substantial amount of his policy.

John Kerry had the problem of making a firm idenity and go on his record. The Republicans pointed out his faults, while Kerry never pointed out the postives. That is what hurt Kerry in my opinion. He had no proof (his record) to back up his campagin promises. The Democrats need to chose a more solid canidate in the future.

Jon Stewart '08.

quote:

Originally posted by Reverend_Trance Well, I am back after a long time. And I am here to give my 2 cents. On my campus, I heard this: Bush will bring back the draft! The House defeated a draft bill 402-2. These tactics were used by both sides. I respect your views on liberal Christians but the Christians in the Midwest here tend to be the uber-conservative type. They hear abortion and scream EVIL!!!!!

Understandable. Lotsa conservative Democrats down South tend to sway towards a Republican when they feel necessary. I think the Dem. strategy on this particular aspect alone is to look towards a Southern Democrat, which will help bring these conservative Dems. back over. Of course there's much more involved in this decision, but this is certainly one of the primary reasons why they're looking down South for a candidate in '08.

quote:

I noticed gains in the DNC according to your figures and that party fluctuation happens depending on the election cycle. Many of those DNC growth was from the "Anybody but Bush" crowd. When Ashton Kutcher was in Minnesota I saw him. He was an idiot, screaming about the draft and how Bush raised taxes. Fear is an effective weapon. The draft, the future of Social Security, The War on Terror to name a few.

I think you have a point here, and it's one that will need to be addressed for both '06 and '08 for the Dems. The Democratic demographics were as diverse as could possibly be this election, and it's going to be difficult to keep such diversity together in the future. This is in contrast to the Republicans, who tend to have a much more cohesive base. However, the disadvantage to such diversity is also a great advantage, because on the flip-side of that argument they can also reach out to a broad range of individuals and groups.

Keep in mind that although Bush got the most votes for a President, Kerry also got the 2nd most votes too. Not too shabby for a 2nd placer. But again, I think we'll see the Dems. look a little more closely to the South. However, do NOT expect them to compromise their core beliefs and base in doing so. Rather, they will be re-framing the argument of "moral values" a bit more effectively, while gathering steam from those disenchanted voters as our economy continues to fall into debt, healthcare premiums skyrocket, poverty rates continue to trend upwards, and so forth.

Besides, there's some growing evidence that the "moral values" factor was not so much a factor in the overall vote:

quote:

A political earthquake shook Colorado on Tuesday when voters gave more legislative responsibility to Democrats at the statehouse and in Washington. Republican losses weren't just psychological, they were tangible. Two Salazars entered the picture when Ken Salazar took the U.S. Senate seat that fell to the GOP after Ben Nighthorse Campbell switched parties. John Salazar will succeed Rep. Scott McInnis in the 3rd Congressional District. The result shifts the state's party balance in Washington from 7-2 Republican to 5-4 Republican. Republicans enjoy a large advantage among registered voters in Colorado, but the electorate was clearly sending the GOP a message. We are likely to see a gradual shift away from the conservative agenda focused on tax cuts and spending cuts to one that accommodates funding for education, health care and a clean environment. Some strategists believe the legislative upset was a repudiation of Republican Gov. Bill Owens, who has frequently been at odds with Democrats on fiscal issues. In addition, social conservatives have dominated the legislative agenda in recent years, alienating moderate Republicans with highly divisive measures that targeted activist judges, liberal college professors, gay couples and even bookstore owners. Veteran Republican lawmaker Sen. Norma Anderson warned her GOP colleagues during the last legislative session that their arch-conservative agenda and inability to show leadership on critical issues would create a backlash and propel the Democrats to power. She wasn't happy about it, but she was right. http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0...2511769,00.html

-and-

quote:

There was a very strong correlation between President Bush's share of the vote in 2000 and his share of the vote in 2004 across all 50 states and the District of Columbia. The president consistently ran a few percentage points ahead of his showing in 2000, but he did not improve on his 2000 performance any more in states with gay marriage referenda than in other states. In 11 states with gay marriage referenda on the ballot, the president increased his share of the vote from an average of 55.4 percent in 2000 to an average of 58.0 percent in 2004--an improvement of 2.6 percentage points. However, in the rest of the country the president increased his share of the vote from an average of 48.1 percent in 2000 to an average of 51.0 percent in 2004--an improvement of 2.9 percentage points. http://www.emergingdemocraticmajori...ives/000934.php

But then again, perhaps the "moral values" factor was effective where it really counted.


Historically the second term for incumbents has been, shall we say, fairly rough. Given Bush's first 4 years, I see no reason why he would be any different. If anything, Bush and the Republicans are gonna have a helluva hard time during their second term. They've got no one else to blame for their perils on our economy and debt as well as in Iraq. I'm bettin' high that these will collapse on them like a deck of cards, and I doubt anyone will buy into it being Bill Clinton's fault this time around.

quote:

I was able to see Dick Cheney and John Edwards during visits to Minnesota. I made the effort to drive several hours to see them. Their speeches and platforms sounded the same. Edwards said he would help farmers and fight the war on terror more effectively, as did Cheney. I personally voted for Bush even though I disagree with a substantial amount of his policy.

Eh, I'll try not to fault you too bad for that one.

quote:

John Kerry had the problem of making a firm idenity and go on his record. The Republicans pointed out his faults, while Kerry never pointed out the positives. That is what hurt Kerry in my opinion. He had no proof (his record) to back up his campagin promises. The Democrats need to chose a more solid canidate in the future.

I disagree partially here- while it was certainly true that Kerry didn't do a stellar job defining himself well, Kerry did point out his positives on numerous occasions, but the Republicans were once again highly successful in reframing the issues and questions passed around ad nauseum via the press, smear ads, and stump speeches. They defined Kerry before he could define himself, and they did in a most excellent, smearing manner.

As I've said before, if anyone doubts the genious of Karl Rove, I hope those doubts can be put to rest now. This smug, coniving bastard is someone that you absolutely loath as an opponent, but absolutely cherish as an ally.

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

quote:

Originally posted by Seventil Jon Stewart '08.

I think he'll just be turning 46. Youngest president since JFK or youngest ever? And will America ever accept a Jewish president?

I'd definitely take Stewart over Hitlary in any race but I don't think Stewart has any political aspirations. At least not yet.