my thoughts

___________________
www.myspace.com/mentris

ALL Hail JP Lover for his info

thnx for all the insight man

i hope an admin makes this a sticky

from personal experience i like working with Triads (chords consisting of three notes) in my melodies...

I've read that not all chords are the same...buttom note ('root') and
the top note ('fifth') are mostly the same distance apart (seven semitones)...is this true?...if so then there does seem to be some rules and reciepes

Sebasano

You can also "invert" the normal triads.

First inversion: root on top, 3rd @ bottom (e.g. C major: C E G --> E G C),

second inversion: third on top, 5th @ bottom (G C E).

This may be interesting e.g. if you have a nice chord progression and want to make it sound more interesting or different.

As you said you can also add additional keys to an existing chord, e.g. the "7" (C E G B) or the "6" (C E G A).

Of course you can also leave out some keys (e.g. C G ) and (if you like) add these missing tones in another melody with another sound. So you get the harmonic context (e.g. major or minor) through the additional melody (e.g. Kai Tracid - Concious (Energy Mix) @ 6:18)

Bye
/nytrox

___________________
www.myspace.com/mentris

Last edited by nytrox on Dec-10-2004 at 10:51

quote:

Originally posted by wayfinder this is the worst advice in this thread.

well the first line was entirely sarcastic, but it does pop up all the time (all to much?)

___________________

http://www.youtube.com/mezzir

quote:

As you said you can also add additional keys to an existing chord, e.g. the "7" (C E G B) or the "6" (C E G A).

thats a Cmaj7. a C7 is C E G Bb

in all the time ive learnt music theory ive never had anyone explain why this is to me. they either dont know like me or they fob me off with bullshit.

if its a bit abstract ill explain it for the benefit of everyone here that doesnt know

a scale from C is C, D, E, F, G, A, B

which is 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th note from the root note C.

this is also known as a C major scale b/c it has no sharps or flats and its recommended you start learning scales and chords from this root note because of this.

you make a chord using a triad of notes. the 1st root note, augmented 3rd and perfect 5th.

hence. a C chord is C, E, G.

you can extend this by adding extra notes in harmony.

a C6 would be C, E, G and the 6th note of the scale A.

a C7 is annoying because for some reason the 7th is flattened. i dont know why but im hoping someone can finally explain this to me.

C7 = C, E, G, Bb

for 9ths, 11ths and 13ths you need to extend the scale because these chords span 2 octaves.

C, D, E, F, G, A, B,, C, D, E, F, G, A, B,

thats 14 notes.

therefore.

C9 = 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th (careful), 9th

i.e. C, E, G, Bb, D

C11 = C, E, G, Bb, D, F

and C13 = C, E, G, Bb, D, A

you can simplify a large chord that spans more than 1 octave or use smaller chords that just add an extra note in harmony using add.

eg.

C6add9 is a C6 + 9th note.

i.e.

C6add9 = C, E, G, A + D

C7add13 would be a C7 + 13th note

i.e.

C7add13 = C, E, G, Bb, A

a C9add13 would be a C9 chord (C, E, G, Bb, D) + 13th (A)

yep you guessed it. its the same as a C13 chord. hence sometimes the confusion in music theory. its also why you wont find a C9add13 in a chord library more often than not. there will only be a listing for C13. or sometimes vice versa.

you can do the same for scales starting in anything other than C but remember to count up in whole notes (this will includes using sharps and flats).

to end this chord library shit once and for all you can make chords minor, major, suspended, diminutive by altering the original chord triad. there is no need to look up abstract chords in a chord dictionary and doing so is a waste of time because once you know this stuff you can figure out any chord in your head (but to do it on the fly as you are playing is difficult and requires a quick mind and good mental arithmetic. this is why improvized jazz can in many cases be truly amazing and awe inspiring. you can see how quick witted everyone has to be to keep up with the insane number of key changes).

to make C into a minor chord you flatten the augmented 3rd.

e.g.

C or C major = C, E, G
C minor = C Eb, G

to suspend a chord you can do it in 2 ways. either by sharpening the augmented note (sus4) or double flattening it (sus2)

e.g.

Csus4 = C, F, G
Csus2 = C, D, G

to diminish a chord you flatten the augmented and perfect note.

e.g.

Cdim = C, Eb, F#

you can chain these with 7ths and 11ths to make bigger chords and so forth so that a Cdim7 would = C, Eb, F#, Bb.

C7sus4 would = C, F, G, Bb

easy.

Last edited by Derivative on Dec-11-2004 at 22:27

oh yea, they dont use big chords much in trance. or diminutive chords. if you have an electric guitar, put on a huge crunchy distortion and overdrive it. strike a couple of diminutive 7ths. total dischord. great if you like playing NY hardcore or screamo or really nasty metal.

but chords. scales. music theory in general. its basically maths. that gives rise to a near infinite number of variables and combinations and permuations of notes.

Last edited by Derivative on Dec-11-2004 at 22:39

http://64.33.34.112/MFILE/vpc.html

Just some extra information and one or two corrections!

quote:

Originally posted by Derivative a scale from C is C, D, E, F, G, A, B which is 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th note from the root note C.

From the root (key) note C, each note is:

D - Major 2nd
E - Major 3rd
F - Perfect 4th
G - Perfect 5th
A - Major 6th
B - Major 7th
C - Perfect 8ve

The Major intervals can be made either diminished (down 2 semitones), minor (down 1) or augmented (up 1)

The Perfect ones can only be made diminished (down 1) or augmented (up 1)

quote:

you make a chord using a triad of notes. the 1st root note, augmented 3rd and perfect 5th. hence. a C chord is C, E, G.

That should be 1st root note, major 3rd and perfect 5th, jsut so theres no confusion!

quote:

a C7 is annoying because for some reason the 7th is flattened. i dont know why but im hoping someone can finally explain this to me. C7 = C, E, G, Bb

What your getting confused with here is the key families. Unbeknown to a lot of people there are actually three - Major, Minor and Dominant. Major and Minor are the usual (classical) ones and Dominant is the more pop/bandy one. But whatever.

In a dominant C chord the 7th is flattened(C, E, G, Bb)

In a minor scale it is normal for the 7th to be sharpened (harmonic) or the 6th and 7th to be sharpened (melodic) but as far as i'm concerned these both sound bum so i leave them out.

quote:

for 9ths, 11ths and 13ths you need to extend the scale because these chords span 2 octaves. C, D, E, F, G, A, B,, C, D, E, F, G, A, B, thats 14 notes. therefore. C9 = 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th (careful), 9th i.e. C, E, G, Bb, D C11 = C, E, G, Bb, D, F and C13 = C, E, G, Bb, D, A

Its normally accepted that when you do chords such as this you leave out a few notes, so the sound doesnt become to fat with loads of harmonics ect.

The notes you'd normally leave out are 3rds and 7ths and 11ths (e.g when doing C13) but obv the choice is up to you. Just make sure u leave in the 5th!

quote:

easy.

Indeedy when you you learn the basics!! This is really helping me this thread. Keep it coming, should definitely be a sticky.

___________________
check out my tunes and my mixes on soundcloud
my released tunes

at last! an answer to the dreaded flattened B. you have no idea how many people have fobbed me off with bullshit. until its stickied ive got this page on my favs.

i should have mentioned that you can leave certain notes out of a C13 cuz they do sound...uhhh a bit too massive if you play them all. sometimes.

in addition to the above:

you can play the root notes as a bassline typically in trance and have your leads just with the major3rd and perfect 5ths (cheers for the correction - eheh, wont be making that mistake again. ehehehe)

for example, with your left hand you can play the bass in C. with your right hand you can play the lead Eb, G for a minor interval say 2 octaves higher (C, Eb, G = C minor). an interval is a chord with only 2 notes. typically root and major 3rd.

doing this sometimes just makes things more interesting.

you can also add 7ths, 11ths, 13ths etc to this but remember that its relative to the root note.

EDIT: i just made this in key of C using a plucked sound on my virus to show you what i mean.



if you are good with figures in your head and you can count up quite well you can totally improvise leads on the fly as long as you know your harmonies and keep to the scale. take note of the notes used. it starts with a C minor then drops into a C sus2, then a C minor interval with the bass note still in C. the bass note drops to A flat (this one is classic. you clan practically guess where this one is heading after that). keep the 5th (G) and add some 7ths (B flats). experiment with adding 6ths, 7ths, 9ths, 11ths, 13ths or taking some of them away to get some more interesting kind of sounds.

Last edited by Derivative on Dec-15-2004 at 07:37

I learned another aproach. I started with strict theory and now I know the rules I can use them or forget them.
I started making songs with only I IV V and it's inversions in many keys, major and minor.
In c I had to connect ceg fac and gbd. Not much choice yet.
Then we learned the flattened 7, which means it's the 7th of the dominant of the root.
I had to appoint three chord notes to four voices so I also learned which note you can and which you'd better not use twice in a chord.

Most trance music doesn't follow any classical theory, unless it's taken from an original piece like Ligaya, adagio for strings etc.

PM me if you want to know more of the I IV V chords etc.

quote:

Originally posted by messytechie As much as people might try to tell you otherwise, there are standards for every genre of music, that if you follow you will create a standard piece of music for that genre (look at DnB for example - yeah sounds great but its all exactly the same stuff, just produced differently)

man, thats such a terrible attitude, especially coming from someone that makes trance.

___________________

Its nothing about attitude, its simply fact. Also I was making a point.

You can't write a trance piece in 3/4 using a string quartet just like you can't write a symphony on a wood block. You're taking it out of context.

For a more blatant example just look at pop music, its all depressingly identicle. I mean has any one of Busted's No.1's been different? Hell no.

(BTW you may be confused if you think I'm saying this is a good way to make music, following rules - it's not. Its just better to know the rules before you break them)

___________________
check out my tunes and my mixes on soundcloud
my released tunes